It IS as simple as that.
Runners run.
The rest is tweaking and often not even necessary.
Just listened to a Bobby McGee podcast where he said running technique is the most important factor .
But, then again, he’s just one of the great modern running coaches. … Who should be ignored in the name of endless miles
x2, it is best to ignore this great modern running coach in the name of the correct dose of miles at a strong pace.
It IS as simple as that.
Runners run.
Yeah, till they get injured and give it up or add variety…
how many great runner has booby mc gee produced anyway i had a look at his website and cant see any results
i honestly dont know much about him since his book magical running isn’t exactly my favorite book
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The whole Lydiard thing has been distorted and lost in the mists of time. Some how, now, Lydiard = all LSD all the time, with a heavy emphasis on the S. Wrong!
Running ( or riding or swimming) aerobically right at the edge - most likley in that zone that all these new-wave coaches tell you to not run in - is damn hard. That’s what Lydiard was talking about and that’s what gets results.
I am going to get hammered for this but I am just speaking the truth and the facts here. Current day endurance athletes fiddle, fart around and worry way too much about the training protocols and routines that are meant to extract that last 2-5% of their performance. You actually see people *starting out *all stressed out that they are not doing these sorts of workouts or routines etc . . .The reality is that good, solid basic aerobic training (that’s the REAL meaning of Lydiard’s aerobic training) will get you to 95%+ of your absolute best performance, so just get out the door and do it! It’s not that complicated!
Possibly we are obsessed with the extra curricular stuff because the majority of runners are injured half the time
Just listened to a Bobby McGee podcast where he said running technique is the most important factor … Not endless miles with poor form. Said it is no different to swimming, in that good form, and technique should be obsessively applied. In the same interview (with Gordo) he said barefoot running, run-walk method and biomechanics are very important. He was at the time doing a speaking tour on the Pose method.
But, then again, he’s just one of the great modern running coaches. … Who should be ignored in the name of endless miles
you should read the running technique series from the guys at the Science of Sports for a different perspective: http://www.sportsscientists.com/2008/01/featured-series-on-science-of-sport.html
I would also like to know what ‘good’ form is, I’ve asked this before to different coaches and no one have defined this in the same way…
The whole Lydiard thing has been distorted and lost in the mists of time. Some how, now, Lydiard = all LSD all the time, with a heavy emphasis on the S. Wrong!
Yeah, Lydiard actually HATED the term LSD. That was Joe Henderson’s invention (well he got it from Browning Ross but he was the one who really popularized it).
Henderson writes a funny account of Lydiard setting him straight on the subject here:
When I was training for my first 100 mile run a few years back. the ONLY thing I did was add more mileage. No time for anything else. Did not pay attention at ALL to pace I was running, just time on feet. Wenr from 20-35 mpw to consistent 60-75 mpw. (this is low according to lets run but 2x what I was doing)
Then entered a few races. In that one year:
half hour PR in the half marathon
qualified easily 2x for Boston without drama the last 6 miles
15 min 10km pr
6 min PR 5km
2.5 hour PR (approx) in 50 mile race
This was all a complete shock to me as I always was one of the slow ones at the back. High mileage works no doubt.
But my tri times sucked! just did a few sprints for fun.
Why is it such a controversial topic to suggest that when running 100+mpw an athlete might benefit from some strength in the supporting muscles? The typical answer is that “the Kenyans don’t do it” or that “Americans didn’t do in in the '70s and we won more marathons then” so it’s unnecessary, just run more and do nothing else.
Sorry, that ignores way too many variables that influence relative performance, one of which at the elite level is that Kenyans and Ethiopians weren’t nearly as involved in global distance running 30 years ago like they are now. Take Salazar’s and Rodgers’ winning times from the 70s-80s and they’re pretty much on par with Hall and Ritz. The difference is that there are 3-10 east Africans in any given race now going even faster. Maybe Kenyans don’t do plank exercises, but they also have a social regime whereby winning races gets them out of poverty and famine. How much harder would Americans, Europeans, or Japanese run if we could feed our village for a year on a single race’s winnings?
Also, top elite running is a pretty naturally selective process. The best runners often emerge irrespective of diet, core strength, cross training etc. America may have had more great distance runners in the past since track/running was a more mainstream sport with a greater youth emphasis. Maybe only 1/10 of 1% made it to the top, but that was from a larger denominator than now. The opposite has been true in east Africa. But, regardless, for a 40yr old slowtwitcher to base their training process on what the top 1/10 of 1% elite runners are doing is not necessarily sound reasoning. Way too many other contributory factors.
And btw, how many people posting in this thread are actually consistently running 100+mpw so that they even can offer a relevant opinion on this topic? Bottom line is that over time everyone should find the balance of training volume, rest, variety, etc, that optimizes their performance and enjoyment. Anything other than that is questionable in my opinion.
That said, I’m now heading out for a 10 mile run, which will get me to 105 miles this week. And I will be doing some deadlifts when I get home (the horror!). Happy and healthy training to you all.
people ran fast before core work was a fad.
No shit. But some smart recovery and core strength work can help keep you healthy enough to do that high mileage. The keys to improvement are stress, rest, and consistency over time. You can’t do 2 of those 3 things if you’re on the sidelines.
I’m someone who has had chronic back pain issues since my early 20s. Oddly, my back has been happiest over the years at times when I’ve been doing the most running miles. My theory is that running in and of itself actually does good things for the core muscles that helps stabilize my back. So how much more core work should a person be doing when the primary activity already seems to be doing a lot to stabilize the torso.
I gotta agree with this, it is all about consistency and volume. I think the key is easing into that volume. You gotta be gradual to avoid injury.
Just listened to a Bobby McGee podcast where he said running technique is the most important factor …
Show me 100 top runners and I’ll show you 100 different forms. The nice thing about running is if people just went out the door and turned off their minds and just ran, without thinking about foot strike arm carriage etc, 97% of those people are going to self select the proper cadence, proper stride length and form for themselves.
But no, people can’t do that, they think they are in that 3%, that there is some magic solution other then doing the miles week after week after month after month after year after year. Then while they are trying some 5 fingers or selecting some unnatural cadence or stride length they are getting injured. Or while they are trying some technique based running they get injured.
The majority of people don’t get that they are not special. That they are not in that 3%. The are in the norm. And since they are in the norm, if they ran more often, ran more miles and did adopted some recovery habits vs trying to fit everything else extraneous in, they might actually find themselves running more.
you want literature showing that more miles = less injures. it’s called adaptation. The best way to make adaptations to something is to do that something and do it often. I’m not saying Mcgee should be ignored, I am saying that all this shit about running techniques, core work, special shoes, running barefoot etc is just that for most people. It’s shit. You know why? B/c 99% of the people don’t have the patience to take the time to learn how to do it. They half ass into it and get injured.
The reason people run like shit is b/c they like the shit they play in and don’t want to adopt a shit free paradigm. They want to feel like they are hot shit when in fact they aren’t even a turd at all.
On a side note, if you can ever get your hands on some of the unpublished POSE research, check out their injury rates. It makes their published injury rates look injury free. I wonder if he mentioned that tidbit in his podcast?
The reason people run like shit is b/c they like the shit they play in and don’t want to adopt a shit free paradigm. They want to feel like they are hot shit when in fact they aren’t even a turd at all.
brilliant use of poop
Just listened to a Bobby McGee podcast where he said running technique is the most important factor …
Show me 100 top runners and I’ll show you 100 different forms. The nice thing about running is if people just went out the door and turned off their minds and just ran, without thinking about foot strike arm carriage etc, 97% of those people are going to self select the proper cadence, proper stride length and form for themselves.
But no, people can’t do that, they think they are in that 3%, that there is some magic solution other then doing the miles week after week after month after month after year after year. Then while they are trying some 5 fingers or selecting some unnatural cadence or stride length they are getting injured. Or while they are trying some technique based running they get injured.
The majority of people don’t get that they are not special. That they are not in that 3%. The are in the norm. And since they are in the norm, if they ran more often, ran more miles and did adopted some recovery habits vs trying to fit everything else extraneous in, they might actually find themselves running more.
you want literature showing that more miles = less injures. it’s called adaptation. The best way to make adaptations to something is to do that something and do it often. I’m not saying Mcgee should be ignored, I am saying that all this shit about running techniques, core work, special shoes, running barefoot etc is just that for most people. It’s shit. You know why? B/c 99% of the people don’t have the patience to take the time to learn how to do it. They half ass into it and get injured.
The reason people run like shit is b/c they like the shit they play in and don’t want to adopt a shit free paradigm. They want to feel like they are hot shit when in fact they aren’t even a turd at all.
On a side note, if you can ever get your hands on some of the unpublished POSE research, check out their injury rates. It makes their published injury rates look injury free. I wonder if he mentioned that tidbit in his podcast?[/reply
I couldn’t agree more - I have been injured during the past two seasons. The first was changing shoes since I found some on sale - I know stupid, but it is what it is. The second was trying out the Newtons and ignoring the directions. I jumped right into it wearing them full time and never took the time to adjust. I’m still trying to recover somewhat from ankle tendonitis as a result. I have never had ankle issues in my life. I did learn to be more of a mid foot striker in the process which I do think it has helped alot - I just took the hard and long way to get there in the end.
There’s an inflection point at which the marginal benefit of an addition unit of running is less than one of rest, core stability work, etc. I personally believe this is somewhere above 100 mpw for serious runners and perhaps about 75 mpw for those less committed to running.
I think you guys are all missing my point. I’m strongly encouraging people to run a shitload to get better at running. I also strongly encourage some variety at some point so that the engine doesn’t outperform the chassis. Going from 30 mpw to 60 mpw, then I’d say yes, just run. Going from 60 mpw to 120 mpw, then I’d say pay closer attention to the other facets of your health and overall fitness.
Balance can be a good thing. The balancing point will be different for everyone. Is this concept really so hard to understand?
Because if you’re running 100 miles a week you already have enough strength to run 100 miles a week therefore more strength isn’t going to help anything.
What in the world does their societal factors have to do with core exercises?
Also, since when does running 100 miles a week have anything to do with having an opinion on what you should do for training. How many coaches are running as much as their athletes? Umm pretty much none? does that mean they can’t offer an opinion on how much their athletes should run? that’s just stupid.
There’s an inflection point at which the marginal benefit of an addition unit of running is less than one of rest, core stability work, etc. I personally believe this is somewhere above 100 mpw for serious runners and perhaps about 75 mpw for those less committed to running.
I think you guys are all missing my point. I’m strongly encouraging people to run a shitload to get better at running. I also strongly encourage some variety at some point so that the engine doesn’t outperform the chassis. Going from 30 mpw to 60 mpw, then I’d say yes, just run. Going from 60 mpw to 120 mpw, then I’d say pay closer attention to the other facets of your health and overall fitness.
Balance can be a good thing. The balancing point will be different for everyone. Is this concept really so hard to understand?
Agree with what you’ve said. But consider that MOST, and I mean the vast majority of runners never reach that inflection point, though they behave as if they have. Which is the point of the article.
Possibly we are obsessed with the extra curricular stuff because the majority of runners are injured half the time
Just listened to a Bobby McGee podcast where he said running technique is the most important factor … Not endless miles with poor form. Said it is no different to swimming, in that good form, and technique should be obsessively applied. In the same interview (with Gordo) he said barefoot running, run-walk method and biomechanics are very important. He was at the time doing a speaking tour on the Pose method.
But, then again, he’s just one of the great modern running coaches. … Who should be ignored in the name of endless miles
Who’s Bobby McGee and who’s he coached?
I just did some technique sessions with an athlete that has had sessions with him last week, and either this athlete has totally misinterpretted what Bobby McGee has told them or what they’ve been told is utterly ridiculous.
You say he’s a great modern running coach - but until recently I’ve never heard of him.
Show me an athlete that has not improved by running endless miles…
It’s the cold hard truth - high mileage just works.
I certainly don’t discount the benefits of sound technique - I coach it. But again, that’s where high mileage just works - it allows you to hold that sound technique. High mileage allows you to develop sound technique. I’ve seen many athletes improve their technique simply by running more (and changing footwear from basically gum boots to real running shoes.)
… an athlete might benefit from some strength in the supporting muscles?..
Be careful. There’s a big difference between **strength **and **endurance **in supporting musculature. Strength won’t do much good beyond your first mile.