You’re about to board an airplane with your spouse and children, and you see a group of muslim men praying in the terminal just before boarding your plane. Do you let paranoia get the best of you and report the “suspicious behavior” to a flight attendant, remain cautiously on guard for any suspicious behavior during the flight and keep your thoughts private unless something starts to develop, or do you treat them like any other group of devoutly religious people - say, a Christian’s mens group on a fishing expedition praying together with their families before departure - and forget about it entirely?
I had this discussion with my uber-liberal wife yesterday when I saw the story on the news, and was shocked by her response.
How do you think you would react?
** MINNEAPOLIS: A Muslim cleric on Tuesday called for a boycott of US Airways, and an Islamic advocacy group called for an investigation, after the cleric and five other imams were removed in handcuffs from one of the carrier’s flights shortly after three performed their evening prayer ritual. Omar Shahin’s call followed the airline’s refusal to sell the six men tickets on another flight after they were forced off the Phoenix-bound Flight 300 Monday evening, an incident the Council on American Islamic Relations said may be linked to a persistent "fear and prejudice against Muslims in the United States.
If you’re concerned about someone why don’t YOU voluntarily leave the flight? Because it is all about you. These people have as much right to fly and pray as you do to drive your minivan and live in your cookiecutter house. Terrorists are brilliant – they get people like you to take away the freedoms that make the United States what it is. They have no need to take down your Boeing 747; they have you fighting the war for them.
I would personally be more suspicious of a man or men of obvious middle-eastern descent that dressed in cowboy boots, beltbuckle & yankees cap than I would of those who dress in traditional garb & pray openly in public. I guess the paranoid woman on the plane didn’t get the memo about terrorists doing their best to look inconspicuous and not draw attention to themselves.
“they get people like you to take away the freedoms that make the United States what it is”
Where did he say he was going to make the Muslim men do anything or change his behaviour? He just posed a question. Maybe you should answer it or don’t bother posting.
As for the article cited in the first post, I’m not sure how the airlines could refuse to seel the men another ticker if they were forced off the original flight. Usually trhe airlines are required to give you a new flight if you don’t get on the original because of the airline.
As for me, I don’t think praying is something that deserves reporting to airline security or TSA.
“they get people like you to take away the freedoms that make the United States what it is”
Where did he say he was going to make the Muslim men do anything or change his behaviour? He just posed a question. Maybe you should answer it or don’t bother posting.
As for the article cited in the first post, I’m not sure how the airlines could refuse to seel the men another ticker if they were forced off the original flight. Usually trhe airlines are required to give you a new flight if you don’t get on the original because of the airline.
As for me, I don’t think praying is something that deserves reporting to airline security or TSA.
I did answer (in a roundabout way) – If I didn’t feel comfortable I would remove myself from the situation (not taking away the freedom of another person or group of people). The originator of this post obviously has a strong opinion about the subject but is too chicken to come right out and express it. And, by the way, you spelled “sell” wrong.
The originator of this post obviously has a strong opinion about the subject but is too chicken to come right out and express it.
You’re right, I do. And it’s exactly the opposite of what you think. If posting a thought-provoking question for the sake of discussion is chicken, then guilty as charged.
By the way, your reading comprehension is piss-poor.
"The originator of this post obviously has a strong opinion about the subject but is too chicken to come right out and express it. And, by the way, you spelled “sell” wrong. "
The author obviously has a question, and may have an opinion, but you can’t be bothered to let him express it himself without deciding you know how he thinks. And yes, I made a typing mistake on the word “sell.” Thank you so much for the valuable constructive criticism. It added almost as much to the thread as your first post.
Since it wasn’t crystal clear - to you, anyway - what my opinion on the issue is, I’ll clarify:
The airline should be renamed “Allah Air” after the men who had their civil rights violated and were publicly humiliated - FOR PRAYING - IN PUBLIC - IN AMERICA - sue the pants off the company and buy it outright. How you determined that I felt otherwise, well honestly, who cares.
What surprised me is that my Lefter-than-Left liberal wife said she may have done the same thing as the paranoid passenger who passed the note to the flight crew, purely out of fear. I was shocked to say the least, but it just shows how much damage the terrorists have actually inflicted on our psyche.
I would respect their privacy and right to practice their religious beliefs but maintain a high degree of situtational awareness.
If their behavior suggested anything suspicious such as:
seated all in aisle seats. seated near exit door controls, cockpit entrances, gallies, emergency equipment or lavatories. similar carry-on luggage between subjects. frequent lavatory visits. lavatory visits accompanied by luggage. behavior such as checking the time frequently. behavior such as making frequent eye contact with their associates but not speaking.
These are just a few of the behaviors that would cause me to alert a flight attendant, who may then alert other flight staff such as flight crew and/or air marshalls.
I think that’s a sensible (and honest) response. I’d like to think that I wouldn’t give it a second thought, but those aren’t the times we live in right now.
You’re about to board an airplane with your spouse and children, and you see a group of muslim men praying in the terminal just before boarding your plane. Do you let paranoia get the best of you and report the “suspicious behavior” to a flight attendant, remain cautiously on guard for any suspicious behavior during the flight and keep your thoughts private unless something starts to develop, or do you treat them like any other group of devoutly religious people - say, a Christian’s mens group on a fishing expedition praying together with their families before departure - and forget about it entirely?*
I wouldn’t pay much attention - but then, I travel around Asia so see many people of different nationalities all with their own religious habits all the time so it’s normal for me.
It’s just like a bunch of christians praying before a flight - or the people queuing to buy last minute travel insurance. I notice it but don’t pay much attention.
You guys are all missing the main point. What we need here in the US is **real airport security, **like the Israelis have. Until the US quits it’s ridiculous style of “throwing a bunch of shit at the problem and hoping something sticks” we will not be safe. The TSA is proof of the idiocy.
I have a pilot friend on a major carrier who told me a story about a friend of his; also a pilot on the same airline. This pilot carries a sidearm, and as he was going through airport security recently, he gave the TSA personnel his gun and proceeded through the airport security line. As he gathered his personal items including the gun, the TSA personnel told him that they were going to confiscate his toothpaste which was over the allowed size! My buddy ridiculed the inspectors and the whole system as inadequate. He thinks it is ridiculous that he and his crews are searched constantly each day as they go from place to place, and says the whole routine is worthless for the pilots as they could crash the plane if they wanted to, no matter the security
I’ve never feared flying between the US and Israel, or Europe and Israel because the security surrounding these flights is first rate. I am no longer a short segment flyer as the whole process is too inconvenient, especially if driving is a good alternative.
Muslims should be allowed to fly and pray in public; but who the hell wouldn’t raie an eyebrow at the minimum at the sight of the men in the airport ???
Immediately post-9/11 I took a flight from Tampa to Pittsburgh to Cincinatti (In know, why Cincy? that is where my friends were). On the dual-prop flight from Pitt to Cincy, our flight got delayed by 40 minutes or so.
The reason? There was a gentleman flying by himselt that had tattoos, and a woman on the flight felt he was “suspicious”. Turns out, this single white male was travelling to see his son that his ex-wife had custody of (following a divorce she initiated and he did not receive custody). This young man’s sole indescresion? Tattoos.
In a post-9/11 environment, “threats” are very much up to the discression of the individual or the TSA agent. I’m not sure there are much, if any, doctrinal guidance items that people follow. The items that Tom D mention are a pretty darn good start as to what we should be looking for.
One reason why I’m for making sure we screen all passengers, ignoring their age or physical situation (such as the elderly grandmother) is that one can easily use these loopholes to your advantage. Everyone must adhere to the same policies, no matter what their special situation is.
If I didn’t feel comfortable I would remove myself from the situation
Isn’t that behavior “all about you”? What if they did hijack the plane? And you said nothing? Walking away does not mean there isn’t any responsibility involved.
I don’t know if I would or not, depends on what my gut was telling me about the other observations (information) that are important to this scenario. But, based solely on there being more than one and they are praying would not likely be enough to have me “turn them in”. I admit that’s not necessarily a reliable detector, but reporting an uneasy situation isn’t the same as labelling them as terrorists.
I would imagine that they went through the same security checks as everyone else (or I at least hope so).
FWIW, I routinely report instances to DCFS, that are not obviuos child abuse/neglect situations to me. Certainly, that is required of my position, but it’s rarely an easy decision. In the end, I conclude that DCFS is better suited to handle the situation than I am. I make the report based on limited information (marks on child, comments of children, etc), and DCFS does the invesitagtion and conclusion. While not identical situations, the same sort of thing could be applied to the opening scenario.
To simply answer the OP … I would need more information.
We all internally profile based on media generated stereotypes. I certainly think the pendulum is really far to the right regarding this issue right now.
It is easy to answer this question hypothetically when there in no potential for harm to your family. Kind of like the tough guy that says he would use his martial arts to disarm a bank robber with an AK47 if he were ever in that situation . . .
If I saw that situation before my flight, I would actually feel safe. Do you actually think a group of people out to hijack an airplane would risk blowing thier mission by blatantly raising suspision?
I wouldn’t find anything suspicious about a group of muslims praying. There are millions of muslims who pray every day, and have never hurt a fly.
If they are praying for Allah to give them strength to successfully complete their mission and bring down the plane, then I would consider that to be suspicious behaviour.
As an atheist living in America (a very religious country by most standards), I find most overtly religious behaviour disturbing but rarely threatening. In this situation, I wouldn’t do anything but get on the plane and hope it would be on time. You are only fooling yourself if you think you are an expert at spotting a potential terrorist or if you think a flight attendant is any better.
Referring someone to a flight attendant is a less than worthless act–it is actually harmful. This kind of paranoid stupidity hurts the economy. Flying is such a pain in the ass that I travel only when necessary. It’s probably impossible to get reliable stats, but I speculate that discretionary air travel (for business and personal) is way down as a result of airline security hassles. A lot of sectors of the economy are adversely affected by this.
Americans are in a different era post 9/11 but reverting to isolationist paranoia will only lead us in the direction of Stallinist communism. Anybody think that’s a good idea?
Great post and question. While I try to be aware of the prejudices and fears conditioned by my living in today’s US of A, I admit I would be sensitive to seeing such a thing immediately prior to boarding a plane.
To illustrate the accuracy of how exposure to real people and cultures attenuates our response (ie. those who fly more internationally were less suspicious of the behavior - Tom lives in a big city and so is more behaviorally specific about what is a threat vs. who is a threat).
In my world, I run an organic farm. I am more sensitive to white guys at the farm supply buying fertilizer loading it onto rental trucks
As I learn more about what is terrorism and who is a terrorists I first see that they don’t wear the same uniform or organize themselves into neat categories for us to see and prosecute.
This is one of those topics where (for me) it’s very difficult not to succumb to overly simplistic “good/bad, black/white, us/them” thinking.
