Interesting read here: (apologies if this has already been posted).
http://www.sciencenews.org/articles/20051126/note17.asp
Thoughts?
Dan
“People pursuing most sports, even strenuous ones, need not be concerned, she says. “This was the extreme end of the spectrum,” she says. However, she cautions, “marathon runners will fall into the same category” as the elite bicyclists.”
the final paragraph of the article.
I’m glad my longest event is Olympic distance
i would bet the former endurance athletes live longer, which is what counts. i don’t think there is any correlation between B type atrial naturietic peptide and anything but a rise with acute heart failure. the athletes hearts are probably bigger b/c they have a higher stroke volume. i bet there HR and BP is lower, which means they live longer.
Hello Dan3 and All,
Maybe your reference is more of the evidence that Mark Sisson says will support his thesis.
Cheers,
Neal
http://www.slowtwitch.com/Features/Mark_Sisson_says_training_is_no_guarantee_of_health._4.html
Excerpt:
Let’s get one thing straight right off the bat: Endurance training is antithetical to anti-aging. So it amazes me when guys in their 40s and 50s who are training for a marathon or Ironman suggest that doing so will keep them young. It won’t. You may feel like a stud now with your shaved legs and your magic marker biceps tattoos, but endurance training speeds up the aging process almost as fast as watching TV, drinking sodas and eating potato chips. Actually, in some cases, it speeds it up even faster.
I know, I know, you’ve been told that exercise is the great panacea – the fountain of youth – and that the more you do, the greater the benefits will accrue. Well, science has started to prove that concept wrong, and I suspect the evidence in support of my thesis will accumulate exponentially now that the first generation of Frank Shorter “psychophants” has started dropping. There is a middle ground where there’s a perfect balance of diet and exercise that will lead to the longest, most productive and “youthful” existence possible. But it certainly isn’t found in endurance training. That said, I do think there are ways (some legal, some not) to mitigate the damage and extract the healthiest life possible if you do choose to train long and hard.
That link does not work
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Hello JoeO and All,
Thanks for the heads up.
I think I fixed the link.
Cheers,
Neal
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Tell that to Jack LaLanne, the grandfather of exercising. He’s in his 90’s and still going strong.
I’ve never thought of Jack LaLanne as an endurance athlete. That said, my guess is that the reference to marathon runners in the article are more along the lines of elite runners rather than the everyday Joe marathon runner.
Jack never bought into “chronic cardio”
http://www.shareguide.com/LaLanne.html
"Jack LaLanne: Twelve to seventeen minutes is plenty on the treadmill–if it’s done fast. That’s all you need for cardiovascular benefit. You don’t need to spend that extra time unless you are over weight and you need to burn off extra calories.
Share Guide: How fast do I need to go on the treadmill?
Jack LaLanne: Do it vigorously, like somebody is chasing you. You’ve got to do it hard. Otherwise, if you just take it easy and do it longer, you are spending all that time when you don’t need it. Use that extra time with your weights instead. Focus on your problem zones, your strength, your energy, your flexibility and all the rest. Maybe your chest is flabby or your hips or waist need toning. Also, you should change your program every thirty days. That’s the key."
Interesting read here: (apologies if this has already been posted).
http://www.sciencenews.org/.../20051126/note17.asp
Thoughts?
Dan
My first part is…did the author of the study control for drug abuse earlier in life?
We all know pro-cyclists were doping long before EPO…amphetamines were very popular…could that have an effect on heart condition? What about all the other lifestyle abnormalities of a pro-cyclist?
There also would need to be a control for the difference in endurance training between then and now. Diet differences would be huge in the 40 year gap.
It seems to me there are just too many other causal factors out there to put much stock in this study…especially relating it to age-groupers or even the elites of the sport today.
My doc has been telling me for 15 years that being a pro endurance athlete is not healthy. And he was involved in a recent study that shows that we are 3 times more likley to have heart anomolies than the average person. He also said it was pretty much us pros, and not the AG athlete. I of course ignored him all those years, and I’m now a product of the negative side of that equation. You are right to think that drugs has something to do with some of the problem, but not all. What I believe is that the motivation for a pro athlete to cross the line, and the 1000’s of times they have to do it, is just too stacked against them. In my case it was racing sick a couple times in my career, and I feel that is when I did the damage to my heart. I know of others in the same boat as me. I didn’t do drugs, but I can imagine that it would be something similar, you artifically can push your heart farther than it was meant to go. It only takes one time, and you can kill the heart tissue that never regenerates. The problems can lay dormant for a long time too, as in my case it took nearly 15 years to finally become a permnant problem.
Many people ask me if it is all the training, and I don’t believe so. A lot of people overtrain, and never have problems. I think it is the odd circumstance that crosses the line when the damage is done, and us pros just have a lot more oppertunities to do that. IF I had been an Ag’er those days when I raced sick, I would have never gotten out of bed, or at the very least quit the race early on. One of them I was pushed to the end, but I did win. I did it because of the money. I remember clearly feeling pretty bad, and just wishing that 4 guys would just pass me so I could be out of the money and quit. I remember Mark Allen waking up the morning of Nice one year with the beginning of the flu, he raced and won, collapsed at the finish, and had some heart problems for the next month… Greg Welch had that famous Ironman meltdown with 10k to go, got a handfull of advil and salt pills from Huddle, and struggled to the finish line in a near dead state. It wasn’t long after that, that he began to have his heart problems. Miguel Indurian had his pacemaker implanted soon after retiring, along with many other pro triathletes I know…
That is what I believe is what happens, and some of the AG’ers that train and race like pros(Joe Bonness) are now also having the same type of problems.
Best advice I can give is to not train or race when you are sick. It was ignored in my day, and you were thought a pussy not to train through a cold or flu. There is just nothing good that can happen to work your body when it is not ready…
I agree with Monty…
Joe is not doing his heart any favors with his Ironman ventures. He thinks that his AFib problems were probably hereditary in nature, but were brought on at an earlier age by a couple of contributing race related factors. Especially racing when ill, which is when is (so far) his only Afib episode that didn’t resolve quickly.
His electrocardiologist told him to cut back to 1/4 of his current efforts. He had worked with studies on Belgian pro cyclists. He seemed to think heart arhythmias were related to low heart rates. He used Miguel Indurain as an example.
Joe took the Drs advice, which lasted for about 3 months. Only time will tell how long Joe will be able to keep training and racing at his current efforts. So far, by limiting all contributing factors, tight wet suits, cold water, start easier on the swim, and avoiding certain foods, he has been able to manage.
Will it lead to “lasting” heart damage? Too late for that. His atrium is enlarged. What the cardiologist said was “you would have probably ended up with a pacemaker eventually, but keep it up and you will need one at 55 instead of 70”.
Something is gonna wear out, the muscles, the joints or the heart.
Humans in historic times had to have endurance to survive. The difference is they didn’t make it much beyond 40 years if age. Today we want out bodies to last into our 80s and 90s. Perhaps it is “better” for or health not to wear them out.
Interesting stuff. Long before I had seen this stuff, it just made sense to me that pushing your body so hard,
with real long events like the Marathon, HIM, and IM, were not doing your body any good, long term.
Guess this is why one IM is good enough for my career, unless I get into Hawaii via the lottery.
I also plan on Boston being my last marathon. To race these distances just kills me, and logically just
does not make sense to be good for a person. MODERATION!
So, I have really enjoyed going back to the Oly distance where I can race, but it is only 2.5 hours so recovery
is pretty easy.
Wonder if this is one of the reasons there are fewer folks in the older AG’s? Oh well, I will continue my LSD training,
and hopefully can do this for a number of years, not really caring about “winning”. I have seen already
that at my age, just going out and having a decent race can place one pretty well. And I never have to kill
myself in training.
I can see how some folks taking winning like a drug. Once they have a taste, they cannot back down and just enjoy
themselves. I fight real hard to make sure that I do not get caught up into this. If I am sick, I DO not train or race.
Just is not worth it long term if ones real goal is to race into their 70’s.
Dave
**So far, by limiting all contributing factors, tight wet suits, cold water, start easier on the swim, and avoiding certain foods, he has been able to manage. **
I’d assume your husband probably had a very good diet before this and that the “certain foods” you refer to might not be the obvious things like greasy cheeseburgers?** **Can you share some of the foods he’s having to avoid now?
Thank you.
.
I’d assume your husband probably had a very good diet before this and that the “certain foods” you refer to might not be the obvious things like greasy cheeseburgers?** **Can you share some of the foods he’s having to avoid now?
You are correct that Joe follows a healthy and varied diet. He is not as regimented as one might assume. He will indulge in a cheeseburger now and then, but not taper week. The one new food that he avoids pre race is actually most high fat fish and fish oils, he also will avoid beer and other alcoholic beverages in the final weeks pre Ironman.
It seems for people with mild Afib “triggers” will vary. Sometimes it is just a matter of trial and error what to avoid. We have a friend that can trigger Afib by coming into contact with alcohol of any kind, including rubbing alcohol. People with more severe cases need medical procedures to control the Afib. It is often just a matter of time until the Afib progresses to a state where medical intervention is required.
The other thing he avoids is sprint racing. (a sprint to Joe is anything under a 1/ IM) Intense, all out effort can trigger his Afib.
It is unfortunate to hear Joe was having issues with an arrythmia. It seems like every other week there is someone on here asking about an arrythmia of some kind, this is a little disturbing. I would be very interested in seeing more studies on the people putting in serious training and racing of IMs, Marathons and Ultra running to see what this does to their health.
This thread has some good points and they all point towards endurance training not necessarily being healthy exercise. Add to that all the junk a lot of us eat (this is my worst habit), because “I just biked 50 miles” and we are certainly not doing ourselves any favors. The skeptics will say, well so and so is 75 years old and did and IM. One the guy probably has not been training for 50 years and well, one exceptional individual does not define what is healthy for the majoity of us.
Endurance training is an addiction, for me at least. I am slowly coming to that realization and it is hard to give it up, a slow ramp down over the next year or so is what I have planned. Still doing some races this year, even a marathon (will probably be my last). I think 3-4 sessions a week for an hour or less (easy swimming biking or running), a little strength and or yoga and stuff like some hiking and skiing is what I would like to “retire” to in a year from now.
Thanks “…crew”
All the best to Joe (and you in support). I’m nowhere near the athlete he is (though I am the same age), but I can imagine that it must be tough for him to have to dial things back.
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This is old history. He had the episode back in 2005 that forced him to DNF at IMAZ. I would say he’s not scaled down one bit after the initial recovery period. Now, 11 IM later, I would say he hasn’t scaled back a bit.
Support Crew
…11 Ironman’s later…and that’s just 2 years…like I said, I’m half the guy Joe is…managed to do 13 half Ironmans since the spring of 2005 :-).
I think all of us know that we are just a bunch of guinea pigs in a masssive “yet to be undertaken study” on the effects of too much hard and long racing and training over multiple years…we won’t know the result of this study for 20 more years, but in the mean time, we’re enjoying the ride…there is a healthy dosage of common sense in Mark Sisson’s article…at varying levels of “scale” the problem is that most of us don’t want to scale back…
I think a points that I do like to stick to (does not really affect heart, but longevity in general). Keep most of the training conversational pace…more intensity close to race season, but low to moderate exertion in general Compliment to the above rule…don’t do anything that takes you out of tomorrow’s training…this in effect act as a governor from doing anything really stupid Don’t run long Don’t run intervals most of the year Try to run on soft surfaces Lift weights not for triathlon performance but to give your joints and muscles a different type of anaerobic exertion to balance off all the aerobic stuff and balance of muscle groups that get imbalance from too much repetitive endurace stuff.
Dev
You have my nomination for best post of 2008.