Lance the Great?

The previous post inspired me to post this- In reference to Lance’s second book…

Why does Lance have such anger towards the drug testers? They are his chance to prove he is clean, they will help keep his sport clean, were only doing their job. That sounds just like celberties who piss and moan about no privacy. I’ll take your income and piss in a bottle or give blood whenever asked. And I won’t complain that the testers don’t kiss my ass. This is just stupid.

Why is Lance so critical of the storing of his urine for future testing? Sounds like a great idea to me, cheat today and become a outcast tomarrow. This is also stupid.

When has Lance EVER said that he has never taken performance enchaning drugs? He does NOT, he says he has never tested positive. There is a huge difference. I have never been caught running a stop light but I have. Very political… but not convinving to me. An uneqovical statement is necessary. “outside of my cancer treatement, I never have nor will I ever take any performance enchaning drugs” PERIOD. Never heard that and doubt I ever will.

Don’t get me wrong I respect the hell out of Lance and his work ethic and would love to embrace him 100% but if it walks like a dog and talks like a dog and shits like a dog…

I agree, though I think this hatred of drug officals is shared by all cyclists (I guess the drugs make it hurt a little less). One thing that makes me think that lance has not doped is the fact that he has had so many sports physiologists study his body, that one of them probably would have seen something, in the tests, or in person (see him taking the drugs), and would have leaked it.

He and barry Bonds both.

I think the world can look at what cycling is going through and legitimately question a guy that goes from #1 to cancer, not just “a little” cancer, to right back to where he was and wonder how much “help” he got.

If Lance were not American, we’d be all over him … demanding he be tested every 2.5 minutes.

I am skeptical (sp?) … unfortunately … about the drug use at any elite level sport. It’s a different day and age. There are a wide variety of performancing enhancing compounds, etc.

It won’t be long before they’re handing out gold medals to chemists. There will be athlete and chemist side-by-side on the platform, holding each other’s hands, crying as their national anthem plays. It will be beautiful.

man i guess i should of posted what i posted in the other thread here.

I think you’re flat out wrong…

Lance has, on several occassions, said he has never used drugs…at press conferences, in his book, all over the place. I think your assumption of “Well, I’ve never heard him say it so he must be a cheater” is ill-advised and go against the fabric of innocent until proven guilty…

I’ve been a Lance defender since day one and will continue to stand behind someone who has given so much to our community (cycling community) and not to mention the cancer community as well.

It was ‘cool’ to like Lance right away - but now that he’s achieved superstar status, it’s not cool. Like how all of a sudden it’s not cool to like Coldplay anymore b/c Justin Timberlake says he likes him on MTV…

Screw it…if you’re a Lance-hater, fine. But if he has been cheating - he’d have been caught by now…he’s crossed way too many people to not have someone want to come out and nail him back. I don’t deny he can be an arrogant SOB - but bring it on…if I won 5 Tours and had survived cancer, I might be kind of a jerk at times too.

“Everybody wants to know what I’m on. What am I on? I’m on my bike, busting my ass six hours a day. What are you on?” - Lance Armstrong

I agree 100%…if lance was dirty, he would have been caught by now…as for the way her carries himself, arrogant? for someone that has won 5 straight tours not at all…I can go to any group ride and see 15 CAT 3 riders act like they are the greatest to ever saddle up…better yet, look at the way some age group triathletes carry themselves…makes lance look pretty humble

One thing I’ve learned in sports … using performance enhancing drugs has no carryover effect onto how you treat your fellow man and how you inspire people.

I sometimes wonder if I really want to know who is and who isn’t using drugs. I’d likely have to take 3/4th’s of my sports pictures down of my “wall of fame”. Really. It’s rampant at the small college level, and it’s just as bad each level up.

what I’m saying is Lance can be inspirational, charitable, frienly, nice, etc … and still use (illegal) performance enhancing drugs.

The guy is human, and he is flat-out the best in a sport when drug use is certainly no secret. You certainly don’t have to understand metaphysics, to add 2 and 2.

"what I’m saying is Lance can be inspirational, charitable, frienly, nice, etc … and still use (illegal) performance enhancing drugs.

The guy is human, and he is flat-out the best in a sport when drug use is certainly no secret. You certainly don’t have to understand metaphysics, to add 2 and 2. "

So you’re saying that b/c he is competing against a group of athletes who are doping - he is guilty by association? AAAGGGHH!!!

Do you have any idea how many times he’s been tested? What would it take for you to believe it? Anyone’s logic on how he is guilty is beyond me…I just don’t get it. The man has been through hell and back and has dedicated his life to his performance on the bike…and you believe he is doping.

…if anyone has the last CycleSport with Tyler Hamilton on the front - there is a great article in there about his relationship with USPS and how he realized ‘what it meant to train’ when he would go out with Lance for rides. The guy is an animal…if he was doping - he’d have gotten nailed long ago. There are just too many people out there who would love to see him get nailed…probably a bunch of posters here too…but it hasn’t happened and likely won’t.

The guy is an animal…100% dedicated, focussed and comitted and is innocent until proven otherwise. I’m sure this futile debate will continue long after Lance wins his 6th Tour - but until something is proven to the contrary, he’s clean.

As a bike-racer, this is always a hot topic of debate on those long LSD rides… Not that I put a whole lot of thought into this and I’m certainly not a conspiracy-theory type person, but “IF” Lance tested positive, do you EVER think it would come out?? The sport would collapse, every US based sponsor would pull out, books sales, cancer foundations, benefits, motivational speaking…it would all just crumble. Lance is now too big and too important to too many people and organizations, both from a financial point of view and as and ambassador for not only the sport, cancer patients, but for our country (he is a fellow texan and buddy of GW) that he’s insulated himself from ever acquiring a black eye like a positive test…the UCI would sweep it under the rug quicker than Lance would drop me on a climb! Just my 2cents…

First, let me state that in my heart of hearts, I want to believe that Lance is clean. That his significant achievements have come about via his grit, raw determination, talent, training and a few PowerBars.

However, contrast his stance, to that of Paula Radcliffe, who goes out of her way to be tested, cooperate fully with the authorities and takes a very public and high profile stand against drugs and drug users.

I think that difference is that distance running by and large is an individual sport, while cycling is a individual/team sport. You can’t win the big races without the help and support of a team. Coming back to my opening comment - Armstrong is clean, but he may have been on teams in the past where other riders who had been riding in support of him MAY have been using drugs of some sort or he is protecting the fraternity of professional cyclists in general - they are a small group of highly paid professionals who live in a gold-fish bowl.

“Do you have any idea how many times he’s been tested?”

Taking EPO is all about the timing. It’s entirely possible to use EPO on a regular basis and not be caught. What gets riders are the random tests. But given a tip-off from the right people, that’s easy to avoid, too.

There’s no question that Armstrong has superior genetics to most every rider out there. But that doesn’t mean he has never taken drugs. Prior to 1998, I’d wager that nearly 100% of Division I riders were on something.

Does Armstrong take anything now? I don’t know, and neither does anybody else here. But to think he has never taken drugs, especially knowing his association with guys like Chris Carmichael and Michele Ferrari, is naive at best.

But is drug use necessarily bad? Maybe not. With judicious use, they’re healthier than descending a mountain pass at 60 mph. I’m not going to pass judgement until I’ve walked a mile in their shoes. I really respect guys like Maertens who will fess up to what they did and still hold their heads high.

**So you’re saying that b/c he is competing against a group of athletes who are doping - he is guilty by association? AAAGGGHH!!! **

No, not by association, but by the likelyhood of experience.

Even at the level of sports I played at, quite a few used PED’s (Performance Enhancing Drugs). A drug using athlete will demolish a non-drug user, even if the drug-free guy is slightly “better” genetically.

The biggest advantage of PED’s is they repair muscle faster allowing more intense training. The more “intense” training sessions you have (and can recover from), the better athlete you’ll be. Drug free folks have to regulate intensity, plan for recovery, etc. Now, look at your statement about Lance being 100% driven, training like a mad fool. Many PED using bikers can’t handle that. Imagine how good you’d be if you could “go like hell” everyday and still recover.

I know folks use (or have used) and sell (or sold) PED’s. It is not uncommon.

Testing clean does not mean “doesn’t use PED’s”. Most folks that use PED’s look at those that get caught (test +) as being “retards”. It’s no secret in high level sports that test-beating is way ahead of testing. Thus, the constant challenge of finding and adding new substances to the banned list. Again, I don’t want to say that every high-level athlete is using steroids or other PED. Let me explain it like this … many bodybuilders test “clean”. Yeah a guy that’s 5’10 270 pounds at 4% BF tests clean, Nuff said.

Here’s the “X-Factor” … growth hormone. There’s no test for it, b/c your body makes it on its own. Does everythng from add muscle to repair bones to improve eyesight. I love Lance Armstrong, but if he didn’t use growth hormone (and other stuff) to beat cancer and return to supremecy as fast as he did, I would be stunned. IMO, GH is baseball greatest problem. Guys going from “doubles hitters” to “sluggers” in a short time at an advanced part of their career. IMO, GH will become a very normal thing in 20+ years. Guys entering their 50’s will take GH, retain muscle mass, feel younger, maintain good eyesight, etc. It will become like “takin vitamins” (Right now it’s still expensive)

I’m saying based on what I know from other sports, Olympics, track, footbal, baseball, etc … and looking at his history … and what is going on the the sport … It is very unlikely Lance doesn’t use something. To have everyone else using drugs except the guy that wins the big races and trains the hardest would be rare.

Again, saying he uses something is not saying he doesn’t outwork, outdedicate, outgenetic everyone else. But, when it comes to drugs and sports, if one person is using … everyone else better also. It’s why sports like powerlifting, etc have a drug-free division and an
untested" division.

Yes, drugs make that much of a difference … which is why athletes go to the lengths they do, in order to use them. They know, they’ll be caught, suspended, maybe even banned, have their prize stripped away … but the benefit is so great, that in their mind, it’s worth the risk. many high level athletes would rather die than lose, as was indicated in a poll conducted some years ago.

It is possible to use PED’s and still be a “good guy”. some would question your morals, most definately.


Side Note — I would not be surprised if triathloning has the same “secret” (i.e. problem) … even at the local level at a reduced degree.


I would love to believe that Armstrong is simply the “greatest genetic freak and cycling animal ever to grace the face of Earth”. That’s what i would like to believe if I wasn’t tainted with the kowledge of drug usage among the other sports. Strength sports have their drugs. Endurance sports have their drugs.

You must have missed this quote.

http://www.lancearmstrong.com/99tdfwords.html

*Can you just put it on the line and say “I am not a rider that uses drugs”? *

Absolutely, absolutely - I can emphatically say that I am not on drugs! I thought a rider of my history and health situation, and with the the results of my career - it shouldn’t be such a surprise (that I have had success in the TdF).

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I don’t post here often, but I read with great interest. Cut me some slack if I’m not up to Slowtwitch standards.

Let me tell you what I know about Lance.

I raced him when he was 15-16. He was awesome. He was fearless. He went head-to-head with the best the sport had to offer (Allen, Molina, D.Scott), and often times came out on top.

You know what I thought back then (lots of years ago) when I looked over and saw this 16 year old punk riding by me, and then running like a striped-ass ape–I thought he was a freak of nature. We all did. We never once thought anything else.

We knew he possessed the perfect combination of genetics and mindset. We knew that one day (when he finished high school…when he reached puberty) he would be the best in the world. We hated it, but we knew…he was that good.

Now Lance is older, and thankfully he chose another sport. Lance is “the perfect athlete.” His kind comes along once in a lifetime. He’s the Michael Jordan of cycling. He’s like that 15 year old soccer phenom who just signed the $500k contract to play for Washington United (or whatever the team was). He’s like Tiger Woods (when Tiger was a kid, everyone knew).

You know what I think about Lance, all these years later? I still think he’s a freak of nature and I’m glad he picked bike racing.

Sincerely,

Jimmy Riccitello

Here’s the “X-Factor” … growth hormone

Although the research (like most in sports/sports medicine) is incomplete, there’s currently no evidence that GH supplementation does anything for a non-GH-deficient athlete. Given that exercise is a potent inducer of endogenous GH, I’m sure Lance has high (and perfectly physiological and legal) GH levels.

GH isn’t cycling’s nor baseball’s biggest problem - if we knew everyone on THG however it might explain a lot.

Chris Carmichael has an association with doping? I know there are several posters on this forum who are CTS coaches…someone has got to stick up for him, b/c if you are making that statement without any knowledge - that’s just plain wrong is the reason why ridiculous rumors like this start in the first place. If you know - say so and toss out some sources, otherwise I’d hope you’d be more careful about what you are implying…

Also - what is this about Lance and giving the testers a hard time? Has he ever refused? So what if he’s annoyed by it…did any of you read Tyler Hamilton’s last diary in VeloNews about how miffed he was about cancelling his ski trip short of getting tested? OH MY! Tyler must be on drugs too!

And if Lance does ever test positive - hell yeah it would crush a lot of people…sponsors, cyclists and cancer patients too. And the last group - cancer patients - is why he’ll never test positive for drugs. With all he’s put on his shoulders and invested in suvivorship - there’s no way he’d ever risk it…no way.

I think alot of anger comes from the fact that one little mistake can make you a life long druggie. What I mean is that you take tablet for a cold and you are done, what’s his name had to withdraw from the tour because he couldn’t take anything for a bee sting. What if he is “slipped” something? I think the fear would be great and quite disturbing. I know being drugged was Greg Lemonds greatest fear (outside of Turkey hunting).

It’s old news:

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2001/04/10/60II/main284958.shtml
.

Although the research (like most in sports/sports medicine) is incomplete, there’s currently no evidence that GH supplementation does anything for a non-GH-deficient athlete.

I read an article about a guy that wanted to do a GH experiment and see its effect on endurance sports (he was a cyclist). Long story short, his conlusion was that riding while getting HG treatments (injections) was so different than drug-free riding that it should be a different sport.

I was sent the article by soone with much more experience than I in the realm of training athletes, etc. I will post it b/c the reactions of his riding group are interesting … they could tell a difference in week 1.

I will try to find that article (internet link) and post it. I certainly don’t want people to have to take my word for it.

Info was edited out to make the post shorter, I’ll find the article and let it speak for itself


2 things about GH …

  1. Anything given to someone with a deficiency will have a greater impact than when given to a perso with normal levels (comparatively).

  2. It (GH, inthis case) still has a major impact on someone will normal levels. It’s sort of like being “in puberty” all over again, in terms of hormonal levels.


Edited In sidenote

GH & Baseball … I said GH was a big problem in baseball b/c players at the the ages where skills decline are no longer declining, but improving … some are improving GREATLY. People can say “it’s the off-season strength training programs”. Players have been lifting weights since the mid-80s. This phenomenon is later.

I wouldn’t imagine that GH is as big in cycling. I don’t know the ages of pro cyclers, but I doubt it is the same as baseball, where guys in their mid-late 30s are “still at their best” or “improving”, when they should be declining.

Again, I’m no sports drug expert, and rely more on people that have been (some shape or form) involved in it, were pro athletes, … but each sport has their “premium” drugs, and the drug-testing agencies are way behind the “users”. There simply is not enough profit to be made “testing drugs” as there is “beating the test” (that’s just one reason, it’s not quite that simple, winning vs. getting caught is #1).

That’s certainly not hard to believe (genetics, etc). If Lance is 100% clean, I would be extremelly happy.

I can think of no one in athletics that is as inspirational.

I always hold out reservation of the possiblity he is/isn’t clean. I certainly have my concerns one way or the other, but I try not to commit one way or the other, without knowing inside info.