Laidlow given validation for Kona despite DQF?

Triathlon Forum
81

There seems to be a lot of inflated folks that think they are just like the pros, newsflash you are not in the same zip code, and I dont mean just. by time…I cannot believe I have to say this, but yes, there are a whole set of different rules for the pros from you tourists.

Some people shit on the pros, but aren’t you shitting on most everyone else…excuse me…on the ‘tourists’, while also somewhat ironically complaining about triathlon’s tendency to eat its own?

I think it’s really not a big deal that people have different opinions as to how IM handled this affair or to cast aspersions about SL’s judgment both before and during this race.

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Not shitting on the age groupers at all, and lets be real, most of them are tourists within a race. The pointy end has a small % of the serious, but the bucket listers and just finish at all costers, well are tourists…

And my vitroil is directed at a few here that just cannot help themselves, trying to lump the pros in with themselves. Is that you?? Because they are not like the rest of us, get treated much much differently, and have a whole set of other obligations to these races and sponsors that we just dont have…

Yes I’m eating up that group here, but from what I can see, they dont represent the majority, just shout louder and more often…

83

If we’re gonna have rules, let’s stick to the letter of them.
The rules are so poorly written that it seems to me they did stick to the letter of the them. I think we can all agree a DSQ falls well outside the spirit of the law, but for the way the rules are written Sam actually did what they say he had to do.

I just don’t agree with this. The rules are clear on this. You have to finish the race. Sam did not finish the race.

84

If we’re gonna have rules, let’s stick to the letter of them.
The rules are so poorly written that it seems to me they did stick to the letter of the them. I think we can all agree a DSQ falls well outside the spirit of the law, but for the way the rules are written Sam actually did what they say he had to do.

I just don’t agree with this. The rules are clear on this. You have to finish the race. Sam did not finish the race.
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He did finish the race and crossed the finish line in 2nd place, albeit under the cloud of disqualification. The disqualification was not “official” until his protest was dismissed which happened after the finish.

85

The official IM results say “No Finish Time”

If the standard is merely cover the distance from start to finish, whether DQ’d or over the time limits, or whatever, then sure, he “finished.” But not in any reasonable interpretation of what that word means in the rules
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86

The official IM results say “No Finish Time”

If the standard is merely cover the distance from start to finish, whether DQ’d or over the time limits, or whatever, then sure, he “finished.” But not in any reasonable interpretation of what that word means in the rules

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The people who make the rules and ratified his Kona Validation would disagree with you. Sam was smart enough to game the system and it worked for him.

Again,I would suggest that if the athlete wasn’t Sam Laidlow then this “issue” would have died days ago.

87

How does this show his wits at gaming the system? If anything it reveals he’s an impulsive petulant person who was willing to give everything up because he didn’t want to sit in time out for a few minutes.

88

How does this show his wits at gaming the system? If anything it reveals he’s an impulsive petulant person who was willing to give everything up because he didn’t want to sit in time out for a few minutes.
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Do you know the content of the conversations he had with officials during the race? Do you know what he was thinking?

I reckon some of you should go to Kona,buy some orange vests,make some banners and glue yourselves to Ali’i Drive on race day. That’ll show 'em!!

Might have to make a drinking game for Kona race day viewing. Every time an ST’er mentions that Sam shouldn’t be there,take a shot.

89

The rules expressly state that a person that has been disqualified may finish the race unless otherwise instructed by the race referee. To me it seems clear that Sam fulfilled this requirement.

The racing competitively part of the Validation Race definition is then determined by IRONMAN in its sole discretion.

As noted above, IRONMAN have simply followed their rules here and without much bending in my opinion.

Whether the above aligns with people’s expectations or what they think the current champion has to do is another matter

90

How does this show his wits at gaming the system? If anything it reveals he’s an impulsive petulant person who was willing to give everything up because he didn’t want to sit in time out for a few minutes.
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Do you know the content of the conversations he had with officials during the race? Do you know what he was thinking?

I reckon some of you should go to Kona,buy some orange vests,make some banners and glue yourselves to Ali’i Drive on race day. That’ll show 'em!!

Might have to make a drinking game for Kona race day viewing. Every time an ST’er mentions that Sam shouldn’t be there,take a shot.

I’ve actually commented that I think he’s done enough to validate and the response by Ironman was reasonable.

I think the fact that he was willing to play a game of brinksmanship with his chance to defend the title, the title and race he said he has organized his entire professional life around, over a drafting penalty that would have simply given him a short rest and recovery before continuing on to validate the slot is anything but witty.

91

Not shitting on the age groupers at all, and lets be real, most of them are tourists within a race. The pointy end has a small % of the serious, but the bucket listers and just finish at all costers, well are tourists…

And my vitroil is directed at a few here that just cannot help themselves, trying to lump the pros in with themselves. Is that you?? Because they are not like the rest of us, get treated much much differently, and have a whole set of other obligations to these races and sponsors that we just dont have…

Yes I’m eating up that group here, but from what I can see, they dont represent the majority, just shout louder and more often…

Hey Monty, I think everyone realizes that the professional side of every sport has slightly different frameworks, however, let’s take a sport that just had major tournaments in Europe and the Americas (Euro and Copa America). The basics of the sport are identical at the highest pro level and low level “high school house league”. A goal is a goal, out of bounds is out of bounds a hand ball is a hand ball, yellow card means certain things and a red card you get ejected, and by and large you get penalized for the same things regardless of levels all the way up to pro.

Sam not serving a drafting penalty and getting DQ’d for not going to the same tent is the same for pros and age groupers (a good thing). Time cut offs are the same for pros and age groupers (I know that is a joke to even mention it, but it is what it is). Race completion is the same things for pros and age groupers.

Qualify to go to worlds in literally every timed sport requires a finish of the event at the lower level. Swimming, track and field being prime examples. I can’t think of cases when athletes advance to finals and semi finals without a finish in the quarter finals. That’s just a fundamental framework for sport. In team sports you actually have to do the regular season to move forward.

While I would not be sad if Sam was told he misses his Kona slot, its not because of anything other than fairness to other pros. The blame here is not on Sam it is on Ironman (largely for being stupid cause they could just use their wildcard option rather than beinging what the definition of a finish is)

Dev

92

Pro athletes and amateur ones already have 2 different sets of rules, it only brings further confusion to include amateurs to this discussion which pertains to a pro athlete.

93

“Hey Monty, I think everyone realizes that the professional side of every sport has slightly different frameworks, however, let’s take a sport that just had major tournaments in Europe and the Americas (Euro and Copa America). The basics of the sport are identical at the highest pro level and low level “high school house league”. A goal is a goal, out of bounds is out of bounds a hand ball is a hand ball, yellow card means certain things and a red card you get ejected, and by and large you get penalized for the same things regardless of levels all the way up to pro.”

Does your local high school house league use VAR to review goals, decide on offside positions or hand balls? I don’t think so.

94

Pro athletes and amateur ones already have 2 different sets of rules, it only brings further confusion to include amateurs to this discussion which pertains to a pro athlete.

Slightly varied nuances, but the big ticket aspects of what makes any sport a sport are the same at amateur and pro level. No point arguing that, because of course you will always be able to pick differences but everyone knows what is a triathlon or soccer or swimming at any level. Most major penalties in any given sport are the same infraction. You can slice and dice fine nuances that are slightly different but the big ticket items on any sport are the same at all levels, or you don’t have a sport in the first place. However you want to cut it, the way the sport is defined today, if you get a penalty on course and don’t serve it and are DQ’d that is not a finished race. Its not really about the distinction between amateur and pro, its what is the universal framework all participants race under. If you don’t have the amateur version of the sport by definition there is no pro sport (just because there is no top of the pyramid to call pro)

95

“If you don’t have the amateur version of the sport by definition there is no pro sport (just because there is no top of the pyramid to call pro)”

We are in agreement there. I think where we differ is here: a handball in your high school game leads to a penalty kick being awarded. The same handball at the Euro goes under VAR and he penalty is not awarded. You are arguing that scenario would be wrong because the same set of rules should apply to both games. Yet, it isn’t an apples to apples comparison since VAR is not available to the HS game.

In triathlon, amateurs don’t have to validate their slots. The validation rule only applies to Pro athletes. Therefore it is by definition outside of the universal framework you mention.

96

On what you are saying, in soccer a hand ball is a hand ball. The means to identify it and give out the penalty may be slightly different (video replay or not). Likewise drafting is drafting (following another rider for assistance), the means to give out the penalty may be slightly different (ex use of race ranger vs eyeball call, slightly longer zone for pros). The the fundamental construct is the same. In another sport (baseball) a complete game is a complete game, a no hitter is a no hitter, a perfect game is a perfect game. Its the same at all levels. I feel in triathlon a “complete race” is a “complete race” and that means any penalties you get, you serve and then cross the finish line getting the distance done.

In this case Ironman is actually being consistent and not giving the guy a finish, but they are saying for his validation that a race that is covered in distance, but where he got a DQ is sufficient for them to count as a “completed race” for the purposes of moving on to the championship.

On the validation side, there actually is an equivalent in the amateur side. In the legacy program when an athlete has completed 12x IM and gets an Kona invite they have to register for and COMPLETE an Ironman full distance in the year (I can’t remember if it is in the preceding 364 days or the same calendar year…I believe the former) before they get their slot validated to start in Kona.

Both the ex Kona winner and the 12x finisher have the same validation requirement, the only difference is the pro has to show they were competitive relative to the pro field (not sure how this is defined). The amateur just needs an official finish and we all know what an official finish is and what Sam did was not an official finish.

Putting the amateurs aside, if they give a KQ validation for a non completed race, what about the pro that does the exact same thing as Sam and finishes in the KQ ranking at the end of the day and has a DQ beside his/her name. That person has no right to the KQ because that person did not finish and thus has no finisher position.

It really would have been easy to give him a wildcard or say, “oh look we re opened up pro registration for some races because we own the races and we can fit in more pros. Sam come and race in Lake Placid and you are golden”

97

In triathlon, amateurs don’t have to validate their slots. The validation rule only applies to Pro athletes. Therefore it is by definition outside of the universal framework you mention.//

How’s the word salad tonight, I see you ordered two helpings… (-;

98

Has it been cleared up WHY he did not stop? On IG he said something about a “misunderstanding” …

99

In triathlon, amateurs don’t have to validate their slots. The validation rule only applies to Pro athletes. Therefore it is by definition outside of the universal framework you mention.//

How’s the word salad tonight, I see you ordered two helpings… (-;

Totally OK to discuss the topic and people can disagree on the content. No need to resort to taking pot shots. You can do better. Making it personal just kills engagement on the forum when you talk down to others. Its cool to agree to disagree.

100

I just don’t agree with this. The rules are clear on this. You have to finish the race. Sam did not finish the race.

If there’d been a poll, prior to this race, here on ST or anywhere else in the triathlon community, pointing out the wording in the validation clause and asking if anyone DQd after crossing the line counts as a finisher, the results would have been overwhelmingly ‘No.’ (agreeing with the post above and most here I think). Heck, even IM would probably have agreed with that, if asked, because probably the legacy program has a similar wording. The fact they had to add all that extra justification about spirit of the event and all that just means they don’t really believe their new version of ‘finishing’ either.

Sam should be in Kona. IM, just give him a wildcard, using the same justification you gave for giving him the validation and I doubt there’d be many would argue with that.