For some reason, I find myself getting steeper and steeper as I approach my top end speeds. The problem is: I begin hitting my elbows with my knees. I’m thinking I should just widen my elbows to make room for my knees (and probably learn to keep my knees closer to the top tube). I have to punch a pretty big hole in the air, so what’s a little more elbow width in exchange for a cleaner knee-lift, at least for top speed shorter stuff? I think in a triathlon, I would do better to keep my elbows in this position just for upper body relaxation. Maybe a little longer stem? Don’t want to get too stretched out, though. Thanks for anyone’s insight.
Nice pics of the pain train, love it when I see big guys hammerin. I’m no fitter but my fit-guy thinks I have a pretty good eye. I think going wider in the arm-rests will open your chest and your breathing. My $.02 says to go as wide as you need to… out to the lateral aspect of your legs. I can’t imagine you would need to go out that far. Your already punching a hole with the legs, I think you’ll lose minimal aerodynamics with wider arm rests but pick up some significant comfort and O2-Co2 exchange.
With decent flexibility I think you can even go a bit higher and further forward but it looks like you might be challlenging your top tube length with that kind of change and as you indicated you would need a longer stem. When you climb out of the saddle are you hitting the arm rests? If so I would have to wonder whether widening the pads would get you what your looking for – more knee clearance. You might need to look at a longer stem if that’s the case.
You know, i have the same problem. I widened the elbow pads a touch, but that’s probably a temporary thing. I think the ultimate solution is a slightly longer stem. I don’t think it will stretch you out too much because you have already shortened the top tube by going steeper, right?
Have you asked Ves about it? I haven’t, but probably will if I decide to stick with the steeper angle.
ideally your knees should tuck in behind your elbows and this causes less drag than if air flows between your arms and then hits your legs. im no expert but remeber reading this somewhere. sounds like you should go for a longer stem or longer aerobars.
Thanks for your points of view, fellas. Yep, that was the pain train alright. It was at the slowest point on the course, and I was holding about 23 mph through a crossing wind. I’m going to widen the elbows a bit, AND try to keep my knees closer to the top tube…I sort of look like I’m riding a horse, instead of a bike.
I’m also going to back off the setting on my Rotorcranks. The scooting forward for me, historically, has been in response to trying to get on top of a too-big gear. Although I never went below 90 rpms, I used to do best in the mid-low 80’s on regular cranks…I have a theory that the crankarm slowing on the downstroke makes the muscles “feel” that they are going at a slightly slower rpm right in the highest power generating point of the stroke, therefore the slightly higher rpm needed for me on Rotorcranks. We’ll see if backing off the Rotorcrank setting makes my muscles feel like they are able to handle the gear better.
If not, and if the wider elbows don’t help, I guess it’s time to try a longer stem. Thanks again!
yaquicarbo,
Please forgive my ignorance and I don’t mean to hijack your post, but what kind of hydration system is that on your bike? I see the tube follows the top tube of the bike, but what does it connect to behind your seat? Thanks.
No problem, warren, it’s a NeverReach system (I’m sure they have a website). I notice that the tubing was a little sloppy for a TT…it can be adjusted to lay right alongside the top tube. May have cost me a couple of thousandths of a second 
YC -
Nice pix…looks like you’re pushing some watts. Perhaps a bit similar situation that I was in last year. I basically started using Normann Stadler’s position. Heck…maybe the most “un aero” pro, but consisently in the top times…
Not that I’m saying YOU should adopt this style…
But, if you were. Size down in the C2s. The C2 were made to fit the elbow, but it seems that most people are riding their forearms…or even wrists (Walton). Why is this…perhaps that top tubes are STILL too long? If so, sie down on the stem. Anyhoo, I went down to smalls and they are working great. (I’m 5’11").
Next, grab the upturn up the C2…pull “up”. Doesn’t hurt if the aerobars are sloped downward…this actually positions your body upward for more air. (Think Urlich).
You’ll also need to widen the aero bars as mentioned…as much as you need. My C2 are maxed out (but, remember I’m using smalls as this will dramatically effect the whole position)
check this out…
http://www.normann-stadler.info/img/im_hawaii_03/IMG_3015.jpg
What a monster…Interesting to note…his Carbon X aeros are cut to around the same length as the bullhorns. That’s a COMPACT position!
Or…forget everything I wrote above, go back to 73 adegrees and take Lance’s position…
Good luck.
I really think you are heading in the wrong directon. As mentioned above the idea is for the arms to hide the thighs from the wind. Moving the elbows out too far will make you less aero and not solve your problem.
I find I slide forward when I am mashing the gears way too much. I don’t know about Rotocranks, but it sounds like the adjustment you describe might be related to your problem. If I don’t apply any pressure over the top of the cycle, I slowly slide forward. Pedaling with a little bit better form fixes the problem.
Fix your pedal stroke before you start screwing with your position.
Thanks, Art. I will make sure I have my pedal stroke problem fixed (I made the adjustment this afternoon, and will test it Monday) before I screw around with the other stuff.
I think you said you slide forward some when you aren’t pushing over the top…with the Rotors allowing me to begin the push a little sooner, that would tend to keep me from drifting forward, but, I’m purposefully pulling myself up there to generate more power…well, more speed anyway. The computer doesn’t lie, I gain a half mph by getting on the rivet…and I just stay out there…not comfortable! Anyway, it is important to get the pedal stroke right before I mess around with anything else.
Thanks, SupaFli. It sure looks like Stormin’ Norman’s elbows are outside his knees!
I’ve tried the hands lower position, and it does allow me to pull up, and that’s OK for TTing, but it really does adversely affect my run. I might just drop them down for a straight TT and leave them higher on Triathlons. I rarely do a standalone TT, but, I sure don’t want to leave any time out on the course if I could do it better with a little different positioning.
It may be noteworthy that I used to have numbness down one arm when I had my elbows even closer together than these pictures. It may come down to comfort on long races and/or Triathlons, and power/aerodynamics on the short TT’s.
Thanks for the suggestions!
It may also be that you just need a steeper angle than where you are set up, and you are sliding forward to achieve it. That is not really the right way to do it, as you are finding out.
I ride at 80 degrees or so on my P3. It is becoming increasingly obvious to me that I do this to compensate for a lack of flexibility. I can’t get low without getting steep.
Either way, I don’t think wider elbow pads are the answer.
Art, it could be that old age is starting to get to me, and I AM finding I need to be steeper, rather than just pushing back against the seat and making the seatpost and headset creak and groan like I used to be able to do! Whatever the reason(s), I’m fixing the pedal stroke first like you said. That seems the most reasonable thing to do. Thanks again for your insight.
Sure you’re getting older, but older = wiser & better technique. I imagine that by going steeper, you’re upper body is in a more compact shape which allows you to better recruit your core & back muscles.
I am switching back to the #3 center setting as well, my cadence dropped to 79 avg for my last TT
Normally it is 85-90
Should be good to go
Let me know how it works out
.
Powergyoza…at least you’re looking on the bright side of aging!
Gary…I’ll let you know…maybe we can compare notes on the change, if it is noticeable.