Had a nice little incident tonight at practice (I am a AG swim coach). A kid who injured his arm a month ago showed up and got back into the water. I was happy to see him return to the pool, and placed him in a secondary lane (based on his past ability) to get back into the swing of things. Halfway throught the first set he is at the wall, drinking gatorade, then gets out and sits with his mom. I ask him why he is doing this, and he says it is because it hurts. I ask if it is his arm, and he says no, it is his lungs. I tell him to get back in, and keep moving, he needs time in the pool to get back in shape (reasonably, I might add). He then mouths off to me, and refuses to do anything. I am stunned to the point that I am speechless. His mom is sitting right there! “You can’t make me, so I’m not doing it!” I tell him to get out, get dressed, he’s done. He gets out, sits with his mother. I tell him to get dressed, he flips out, his mom then goes off as well. I am now witnessing a mother/son bitchout, and I am on the receiving end. I throw them both out. They leave, but not before the kid trash talks me (that WAS kind of funny) and the mother tells me she is going to the school board about this (there is a first time for all things). Now I am dissappointed about the kid’s reaction, and kids have mouthed off before, but what about the mother who witnesses the backtalk, and backs up her son? Have I gotten so old that this is acceptable, and my view that it is not has become a thing of the past? I didn’t even raise my voice, I thought I even approached it too reasonably, saying “ya know, why don’t you get dressed, you’re gonna catch cold.” I was initially figuring he was frustrated, and was just trying to cool him off. What is happening in this world (country, state, whatever)? Am I the only one who has a father or mother who would have beaten me to within an inch of my life for mouthing off at a coach/teacher, especially while they were present? Please reassure me that this is not the way things are everywhere, and that this kid is the exception. Please.
I graduated high school in 1986, and now have returned to THE SAME high school as a guidance counselor… small, rural, western Pennsylvania community.
First let me say that there are great kids out there, kids that are on the right track and are literally fun to be around! (You know this from coaching, I’m sure.)
But as a whole, the culture of teen agers has changed dramatically. I look at my friends and we ask each other, “What happened?”
We deal with problems that were unheard of 20 years ago, at least on any kind of large scale. The drinking is much more wide spread, and the drug use is catching up quickly, including Ecstacy and Heroin (in rural PA).
Sex is over the top and means very little… not “just” girlfriend and boyfriend, but whoever you are with on a given afternoon evening.
The “goth” image seems like a funny little diversion at first, allowing kids to find a group so they can fit in, but when the depression and self-mutilation starts (as it often does) we are dealing with bigger issues. I have “cutting” stories that would send chills down your spine.
As far as respect & behavior for kids (and parents), one of my co-workers describes a “sense of entitlement” and “self-righteous indignation.” They deserve what they want, when they want it, how they want it. Period. Don’t challenge my thinking; don’t challenge my behavior; don’t challenge my intellect. Just hand it to me.
I think that there are several groups of parents: 1.) Trying and doing a good job; 2.) Trying but lost; 3.) Talks the talk but doesn’t walk the walk; 4.) Wants a “good kid” but unwilling to put forth the effort (tells the school, “YOU make him behave!” “YOU make him pass his classes!”); 5.) “My child can do no wrong;” 6.) Doesn’t give a crap.
There HAVE been those times when a student that I challenged or held accountable has written a “thank you” note, or hugged me at graduation (which makes it all seem worthwhile). But equally as often, the phone calls come in from parents reaming us out for any kind of interaction with their son/daughter that they see as confrontational.
We have gotten away from any concept of RIGHT and WRONG. Everything is relative, so how kids act or perform or treat someone has little to do with what is appropriate (remember, there is no RIGHT way to do things). What they do has more to do with how I feel at this moment. If I feel like cooperating, I will. If I feel like doing what I want, I (as a kid) can justify it or rationalize it in a hundred different ways.
Bottom line… I love my job, but it’s scary where we are going.
Ray
Welcome to the 21st Century … a scary place to live. I teach in Vegas, in one of the largest school districts in the country, and one of the fastest growing. What you describe is a daily event, and seems to be more the rule than the exception … add into the mix, horid gang infestation and ‘students’ who truly don’t care.
I spend so much of my time dealing with the bad kids I have very little time left for the good kids. I used to believe there were no bad kids, just misunderstood and disillusioned kids who needed a little extra attention. Not anymore. There are bad kids, just as there are bad adults. Such people will never be anything but a drain on society. And, I think, once a kids hits junior high and early high school their path in life is already largely determined as a result of choices made as a young teenager (and sometimes even earlier).
You did the right thing.
Had I mouthed off like that as a child, I might not have been able to sit for a week. That’s probably why I would have never mouthed off like that.
My son would soon be 3. We’re far from perfect, but my wife and I are trying. But, it already seems that some parents don’t. You aren’t being a “friend” to your child when you don’t set any boundaries and don’t discipline them. But, that falls into the “clueless” category, which isn’t the worst. I actually already see parents that think it’s great when their 4 year old runs over the 2 and 3 year olds on the playground. I feel bad for those kids because they will be absolute disasters when they get older.
I was a Brownie leader for my daughter’s first grade troop. There are a few girls who I wish I could take home for a week and knock some sense into (figuratively, of course – not literally). My job as a parent is to produce honest, respectful, responsible, contributing members of society. My job is not to cater to their every whim or ensure their uninterrupted happiness. I think most parents are of the same mind.
I agree with you and the approach you took. We had kids that thought they could re-write the rules in the military sometmes. We vigorously corrected their perspective.
-Hate to sound old, but kids these days can be pretty lame, and their parents are largely responsible.
This child was obviously not beaten enough during his formative years.
That mother sounds ridiculous. Amazing.
I’m in my second year of high school teaching (third counting student teaching/grad school) and I’m still trying to figure out if it is really much worse or different. I don’t think it is … I graduated in 1988, and it seems like drug use and drinking are similar (half are partying on the weekedds by the time they are seniors, half don’t) … Sex, well, I would also guess its 50/50 too. Not too different from when I was in high school. Maybe a few more floozies (why do girls want that reputation?) and guys who take advantage of girls, but I don’t see it as epidemic.
There’s definitely more kids who have no fear of us (or anyone in authority) which is scary, but what can you do? Harm reduction I guess.
My kids are great and I love my job. Some are just brilliant, and it’s cool to watch them grow up. It’s scary it is going so well because it means I may actually stay in the same place for longer than 3 years, which I am not used to.
I think perhaps this incident may have been a fluke and that by and large kids are pretty good…or not. The more I look at kids/teens today the more dismayed I become at what the world is coming to. For those believing in the end of days this growing ‘me’ attitude combined with disasters like the tsunami don’t bode well. Funny how many times my wife or I have to contend with the ‘why don’t you two have kids’ questions when things like this become more commonplace. Why don’t we have kids? Are you nuts? Even with the most loving and disciplined parenting in the world you can have great kids taken out by some punk who doesn’t give a crap about anything. Somewhat pessimistic? You bet. But are things looking any brighter on the horizon? Not likely. And adding a few million people a week to an already crowded global population sure isn’t going to make things better. Is there a solution to this downward spiral or moral ethics…maybe…I don’t know what it is. I like to hope that somewhere, somehow, someday a person will rise above all this crap and find a way to bring the cycle back full circle. Until then I’m afraid things aren’t looking too good. Sad too, for those in the teaching profession to see this trend in the trenches first hand. I work with what most would consider to be the ones that got away (from the system) and I gotta say…aging doesn’t change the mentality.
And just as Stephen Hawkins said at the end of one of his talks ‘maybe I’m wrong and there is a God after all’…I come onto this forum with a bunch of people stereotyped as being self centered, egotistical, and selfish…and they work things out to buy some guy they’ll never meet a bike…a family of four kids…new bikes…raising money through the sale of clothing to help yet another group in need…and I shake my head in wonderment. Maybe there is a chance things could be made right after all. You guys sure keep the faith in me alive.
Thanks for the insight. I am a recent father, and the incident that started the thread filled me with such emotion because I fear that my daughter will be exposed to children like this one day, and I will be powerless to stop it. I have become so much more determined to be a good father, and to teach my daughter what she needs to know to not be influenced by situations like this. I realize that I am not perfect (shit, that is an understatement) and what I want for my daughter is not easy to accomplish and quite idealistic, but seeing a child like this swimmer makes me think twice about all I say and do. Unfortunately this child will probably not return, his mother demands an apology from me, and the aquatics director (without asking me, 'cause he knew my answer) told her he would not be permitted to return unless they both apologized to me and my staff (the swimmer and his mom). I would like to have the opportunity to work with this swimmer again. I want to do something to perhaps be a positive influence in this kid’s life, teach him about things he will need later in life, but I can’t conscript him, and if his mother continues to make it so he thinks being belligerent is acceptable when dealing with stressful situations, he is in for a pretty hard life. My day job is with kids aged 0-3, and frequently I find myself marveling at the potential these little ones display. Each little life is limitless in it’s future, it fills me with such hope to see it. It is the parents who have the limitless potential to screw it up! It is sad for me to see an older kid like this one we’ve discussed, because I see someone with incredible potential who will never realize it. Sometimes my faith is tested.
First off, I want to say that I am the wife of a forum member - not the member himself. Second, I want to give a perspective that I am sure many of your readers face (or have faced), but are too ashamed to admit it. I am the mother of a 15 year old girl, who has been spiraling out of control for years now. I have done all I can, and now it is God’s hands. We have decided to place her into a “troubled teen” program - in this particular case, a Christain, faith-based, 15 month long residential program. This has probably been the hardest decision of my life - but the one that could save my daughter. I beat myself up for whatever it was that I “must have done wrong”, but have come to the conclusion that I did all I could do - the right way. Some kids make bad choices, no matter what we teach them. I taught my daughter the things my parents taught me - respect for her elders, follow the rules, share the toys, etc…all the things that kids should be taught. She was a very bright child, and loving, to an extent. Then puberty hit & it really became difficult - even after banning her from doing things like going to the movies (for fear that she was going to sneak off with another boy), she didn’t change. Now, she wants to move out when she is 16, believes she knows it all, and honestly thinks she can make it on her own. The sad fact of life is that she can’t make it on her own - that’s what parents are for - to raise up their children to become productive, adult members of society. I love her, as do her step-father & her father, but after many weeks of frustration & prayer, I looked into numerous programs - but since she has not been in the juvenile justice system, we have to pay out of pocket for this program. Most programs range from $5000 per month to $7500 per month. It’s a wonder kids can’t get help! When I was asked how I was going to afford to pay that kind of money, I replied “How much is your child worth?” I don’t have that kind of money, but I don’t have the option of not doing this - this is what happens everyday in our society. If my daughter was in trouble with the law, she could get court ordered into a program, free of charge (basically), and then go spend months with other juvenile offenders (just wonderful, right?), or I do this, go into debt for $30-60,000 (or so), and pray that this does her good. Just some insight from a mother who tried, but who apparently failed… 
Mrs GatorDawg?
Not sure where in your post you have anything to be ashamed of. The funny thing about people (in this case kids) is that raising two in an identical manner often results in two very different people. It’s not what goes in but how what goes in gets used. I don’t see that her attitude is a reflection of your upbringing methods. The presence of two father figures presents some issues I’m sure (coming from a split marriage I know it all too well). Again…not your fault…some relationships just don’t work out. I will say, having been on the side of the fence your daughter is on, that it is not an enviable place to be. Despite having two loving parents who do their best to take care of them there is something about being a child of a split relationship that affects us kids. Again, not every situation affects kids the same way. I am not trying to point any fingers at you…or any parent of a split relationship…merely pointing out that there is something (very hard to pinpoint or explain) that makes the choice to misbehave very easy. Don’t know how many times I caught myself on the threshold of doing something damaging (to myself or others). Some kids just choose to not listen to that voice telling them to back off. I think you have made an admirable decision in getting help for your daughter. And certainly not an easy one to admit. I wish I could offer some kind of financial help to allow you to see this through but I sense that you have a greater sense of duty to work it out yourself (that and I really am not as well off as some other forum members). Whatever you do…don’t quit. You only become a failure when you finally quit trying.
This is a very emotional issue for my wife…I think what she was trying to get at, was that not all parents support their kids in abberant behavior…When one of our kids (we have a “blended” family, my wife brought in 2 and I, once) come home from school complaining about a teacher or person in authority did that was “so unfair,” usually our first response is: “what did you do wrong?”…The oldest has been disciplined, gone to counselling, been through bouts of corporal punishment, and nothing seems to work with this child…It seems her though processes are flawed and for some reason she is owed everything…Many of her friends are this way too…And yes, we have tried to change the crowd she hangs with, even had her change schools…
This all frustrates my wife greatly, and she feels she has failed somewhere…all though the other two children are fairing fine…We don’t want her to be like this and don’t want to make excuses…Hopefully this Christian based behavioral modification program will help…otherwise, she headed down a path that will throw her life away and she will become a burden to society before she even gets out of high school…
There still are some parents that care and do everything they can, and still have a “prodigal” child!
“Our youth now love luxury. They have bad manners, contempt for authority; they show disrespect for their elders, and love chatter in places of exercise. They no longer rise when elders enter the room. They contradict their parents, chatter before company, gobble up their food, and tyrannize their teachers.”
Socrates, 469-399 B.C.
These stories are particulary scary for me because a) I have a 15 year old girl; b) she’s just started being a “teenager” in her behavior, though not really in a bad way, such as the phone is attached to her ear, she sleeps until 11:00 on the weekend, that sort of thing; c) her friends, though they seem like good kids, are starting to experiment sexually and one kid, when his girlfiend broke up with him, was cutting himself, which my daughter thought was beyone bizarre; d) I’m divorced and remarried. She’s venturing out and not completely within my control anymore, like she was when she was little.
She is also respectful, a straight A student, feels comfortable confiding in me because her friend’s period was late (her friend told me about it too), and is not boy-crazy herself. She calls me to tell me where she is or if she’s going to be late. I encourage her and her friends to hang out here, and they do. We even have at least one honorary family member, she’s here so often. She thinks her friends who are experimenting sexually are too young, thinks kids who drink or do drugs are stupid, and seems to be comfortable talking with me about anything. We’re close. She’s the oldest of 3; the other two are 9 and 6.
I can’t help but wonder what I don’t know about, though. Truthfully, being a teenager doesn’t seem all that long ago to me (though I’m 42) and hopefully I’m not so completely out of date that I wouldn’t recognize trouble if and when I begin to see it. But, for instance, I don’t know if I would recognize a kid on ecstasy if I saw one. Is she really as open with me as I think she is? I look carefully for signs, but she has given me no reason not to trust her or to be suspicous; therefore, she has my trust. But I know that in a matter of months, things could change. I went through a few years myself when I caused my parents a lot of grief.
Sometimes you do the best you can and hope that the lessons you tried to teach have made an impression, even if there may be a period when it may not seem that way.
As for my kid talking to a coach like that? I don’t think they’d do it, but if they did there’d be major hell to pay. I try hit them where it hurts by taking away things that are important to them - for my kids, it’s TV, access to computer games or PS2, access to IM and phones (for the teenager), no friends over the house, no kickboxing classes, etc So far it’s been effective.