Agree that it’s similar with academic opportunities and there are no easy solutions.
Our club does fundraisers to supply lacrosse equipment and uniforms to less fortunate students. It’s not much but it’s something.
Yes, I think colleges, at least at the D1 level, are 100% looking at skills only. But even there, wealth has its advantages to get noticed in the recruiting process, attending camps, having high quality video highlights etc.
general question
triathlon has an elitism issue due to costs
is it the same situation for these clubs?
I imagine the schools figure out how to get all capable players to play despite equipment $$, or maybe not?
does it get discussed, or just taken for granted that if you can’t pay you don’t play
A lot of the clubs around us have some pretty big scholarship funds. My daughter’s last two softball teams each had two kids with comped fees and when one dad had a bad medical diagnosis the rest of the team sat down and agreed to stop charging fees for that family and we would either contribute more or cut a tournament. I’m not really sure how it works on other teams/ clubs or how the kids get in with the team. But there are some opportunities and everything I’ve seen is families are pretty supportive when needed- but this is low level local comp teams.
I don’t know about other sports but there is a ton of sponsorship money in basketball. The AAU teams that travel normally have a benefactor picking up most of the check. They hide who is paying for what so there isn’t much spotlight on the money. Also, since it’s not affiliated with any school they don’t have any state organizations watching.
AAU has become very similar to the college alumni money poured into that system. Get these guys while they’re young so they’ll go to your school. The gear these kids are wearing is expensive and there is no way in hell they, or their parents, are paying for any of it.
I’ll concede to swagging on the specifics about cost but it is getting close in consideration. So we now come to concerns for safety with the near-man grown junior boys launching ever increasing velocity headhunting shots back up the middle and the pitcher being left most vulnerable. Are we to put helmets on the pitchers? And then there is the issue of controlling the variance in elasticity measurements on variously constructed aluminum bats and now we are involving carbon fibers to the mix.
Never did compete with the new bats. Tell me, is the sting on that cold day, not quite sweet spot, hit just as bad as it is with wood?
It stings worse
Bats are limited now with energy transference…I was playing in the sweet spot of technology leaps forward with no limits…aka when it was fucking dangerous …my bat would probably be illegal these days and that’s a good thing
Since you brought the term legal into the debate.
Were we playing wooden bats at all levels of play from 6yr old kids to the pros , the following rule seems to be quite straight forward and mostly easily enforced. Length and weight are easily measured and wood material is recognizable as wood. Hence violations with illegal wooden bats were and are rare.
In 1857, professional baseball teams met to discuss rules and competition, as well as the founding of the National Association of Baseball Players. In these early meetings, teams agreed that bats should be more consistent in size and weight.
The MLB rules committee has made several changes to the rules and regulations regarding bats over the years.
Bats must be made of wood – no other materials are allowed in or on the bat. This rule was put in place to prevent players from using lighter-weight materials (such as cork), which would give them an advantage.
There are size and weight restrictions for MLB bats – they cannot weigh less than 2 lbs or more than 3 lbs and must be between 32 inches and 42 inches long. https://www.baseballbible.net/what-makes-a-bat-illegal/
Now compare that with the now. https://www.diamondsportgear.com/blogs/news/rolling-shaving-bats-are-equally-illegal#:
So rolling and shaving have replaced heating and corking. But it gets even more complicated with differences in construction and differences in materials used. Are we making cheating easier or simply harder to enforce? Or both?
About your now illegal, but still not broken, easton bat of yesterday, if it were to surface today at the local park in the hands of the local 14 year old boy, what are the odds that the local governing body authority or umpire or coach would call it into question? Does that bat pass rigorous or casual inspection before game or after the pitcher gets beaned?
I no longer play ball but I do play golf and i am completely clueless about which clubs are deemed illegal (mostly about elasticity) these days. At what level do the sports of baseball and softball become clued in? At what level is cheating introduced?
That ship has sailed. If you want your kids in high level club youth sports it is an expensive game. I spent an average of $190 per pair of cleats from the time my kids were age 12 to 18 and playing in college. About two pairs a year. Strength and conditioning training and skills training on the side costs about 150 per week. The pro set up my kid was in was free but that is pretty unusual. They flew him around on planes and to other countries at age 14 for free but that is rare.
Most of youth sports is pay to play. If you can’t afford it or don’t like it, there is school sports and rec. The spending wars in club sports are crazy and only getting worse.
By the way, as a capitalist I support parents paying tons of money for their kids sports. My one son, after his hopeful pro career is over has already talked to some of his club coaches about coming back and coaching at the youth club. Those guys make about 150 to 180K a year coaching youth sports (multiple teams each season) Pretty good gig and you don’t have to be at work until 5:00pm each day.
america is a deeply weird place
Or how about SDG and his progeny are not a full on representation of all Americans?
I don’t know about other sports but there is a ton of sponsorship money in basketball. The AAU teams that travel normally have a benefactor picking up most of the check. They hide who is paying for what so there isn’t much spotlight on the money. Also, since it’s not affiliated with any school they don’t have any state organizations watching.
AAU has become very similar to the college alumni money poured into that system. Get these guys while they’re young so they’ll go to your school. The gear these kids are wearing is expensive and there is no way in hell they, or their parents, are paying for any of it.
My AAU team was sponsored 25 years ago but we only got a couple pairs of shoes, uniforms, and bags. Mind you that’s for frigging grade school. It was really cool then. Now I shake my head.
I’ll concede to swagging on the specifics about cost but it is getting close in consideration. So we now come to concerns for safety with the near-man grown junior boys launching ever increasing velocity headhunting shots back up the middle and the pitcher being left most vulnerable. Are we to put helmets on the pitchers? And then there is the issue of controlling the variance in elasticity measurements on variously constructed aluminum bats and now we are involving carbon fibers to the mix.
Never did compete with the new bats. Tell me, is the sting on that cold day, not quite sweet spot, hit just as bad as it is with wood?
It stings worse
Bats are limited now with energy transference…I was playing in the sweet spot of technology leaps forward with no limits…aka when it was fucking dangerous …my bat would probably be illegal these days and that’s a good thing
Since you brought the term legal into the debate.
Were we playing wooden bats at all levels of play from 6yr old kids to the pros , the following rule seems to be quite straight forward and mostly easily enforced. Length and weight are easily measured and wood material is recognizable as wood. Hence violations with illegal wooden bats were and are rare.
In 1857, professional baseball teams met to discuss rules and competition, as well as the founding of the National Association of Baseball Players. In these early meetings, teams agreed that bats should be more consistent in size and weight.
The MLB rules committee has made several changes to the rules and regulations regarding bats over the years.
Bats must be made of wood – no other materials are allowed in or on the bat. This rule was put in place to prevent players from using lighter-weight materials (such as cork), which would give them an advantage.
There are size and weight restrictions for MLB bats – they cannot weigh less than 2 lbs or more than 3 lbs and must be between 32 inches and 42 inches long. https://www.baseballbible.net/what-makes-a-bat-illegal/
Now compare that with the now. https://www.diamondsportgear.com/blogs/news/rolling-shaving-bats-are-equally-illegal#:
So rolling and shaving have replaced heating and corking. But it gets even more complicated with differences in construction and differences in materials used. Are we making cheating easier or simply harder to enforce? Or both?
About your now illegal, but still not broken, easton bat of yesterday, if it were to surface today at the local park in the hands of the local 14 year old boy, what are the odds that the local governing body authority or umpire or coach would call it into question? Does that bat pass rigorous or casual inspection before game or after the pitcher gets beaned?
I no longer play ball but I do play golf and i am completely clueless about which clubs are deemed illegal (mostly about elasticity) these days. At what level do the sports of baseball and softball become clued in? At what level is cheating introduced?
It doesn’t have a BBCOR stamp so pretty easy to tell.
About your now illegal, but still not broken, easton bat of yesterday, if it were to surface today at the local park in the hands of the local 14 year old boy, what are the odds that the local governing body authority or umpire or coach would call it into question? Does that bat pass rigorous or casual inspection before game or after the pitcher gets beaned?
In softball and baseball it’s actually really easy, in most circumstances, for umpires to know whether a bat is legal or not. Current bats are all stamped with the marking of whatever approvals they have. The manufacturers build them to conform to certain standards, and they are tested to those standards, and stamped accordingly. Different leagues follow different rules, but the umpire just needs to know what rules the league follows and check the bats for the appropriate stamps. If the league is playing under rules that require bats meet USSSA standards, the umpire just needs to check bats before the game for the USSSA stamp, and tell the coaches to remove any that don’t have it.
I’m so pissed that youth sports today is so much about $$$$. From the leagues to the equipment. I was a hockey goalie as a kid. Goalie sticks now go for up to $300 and I would go through a few a season. You don’t need to buy one that expensive, but I’m sure there are some parts of the country where all the kids on the team get all the nicest equipment. It’s all a bit nuts and sad.
I just had 3 athletes in my gym go down to Vegas for the first of 3 national trips for Volleyball, Indy and Dallas are the other two. They have “showcases” with collegiate coaches in addition to a 3-day tournament playing 3 games/day. These kids are sophomores in high school taking time out of school (3 days on the most recent trip) to travel cross country to play in club volleyball tournaments.
It’s all about the money, but “it’s for the kids”
Got it, and now I think I am up to speed as I just watched the building better baseball, BBB, you tube video that explains youth USA Baseball stamped and BBCOR stamped standards for bats and how they apply to each level of baseball from 4 on up.
Seems that youth baseball governing bodies have their shit in one sock. So now I have to go back to moonrocket’s rant about $500 discounted softball bats and performance test drives. And I have to ask the question as to why the tremendous difference in price range for what supposedly are standardized barrel width, length and drop bats. I would think that in the pool of similarly spec’d and stamped bats marked in price from $85 -$400 that there should be no appreciable difference in performance. Or, is it that softball leagues aren’t quite yet there on standards for COR. I found this 2020 statement by the National Federation of High School Associations to be to be complete and utter BS and possibly indicative that the manufacturers are still in charge and there are no performance COR limits, hence the jacked range in performance and pricing.
When my sons played baseball, they had an outfield glove, infield glove, first base glove, catcher’s glove, and catcher’s gear.
They also had $275 composite bats in three lengths… 30, 31, and 32 inches.
TIL that children need different gloves to play different positions in baseball. Go figure.
But they don’t NEED them. Team gear should include catchers glove and protective gear. Outfield glove and infield glove for kids maybe is appropriate at some point beyond Little League but not for 12 and under. **TIL that composite bats have made it to the baseball field. **
The point I had hoped to make with SDG is to think about the kid on the team that now feels he is being handicapped because he does not have his own private bat, his own outfield glove or even cleats; and just might start to think that he can’t keep up because he is equipment gear handicapped. I grimace watching a kid grab his privately owned bat out of the hands of the kid that is up next who just wanted a bat to use. Just as SDG, as a junior, ridiculed the rich kids who all the gear but could not perform to save their ass, there is hurt to be found in the kid who can play circles around his friends but is on the receiving end of this mantra that his gear is not good enough.
Not here. Only AAA players in the older age groups are allowed them. Everyone at the lower levels/younger ages are all using aluminum bats.
We have team bats, but almost every kid has their own by 11U - definitely by 13U
So at the risk of angering again with another lets go way back when things were a bit simpler and thus a better scenario. How does this sort out:
So we started with wood bats only. The reason for changing over to aluminium was supposedly cost driven. Wood bats broke and replacement costs were too much to bear. Aluminium bats were more durable and the cost would be less. Aluminum then made it into all leagues short of the professional leagues with concern for safety (trampoline effect) and traditions of the game offered as arguments to continue with wood.
You think maybe that since the cost arguments are no longer valid (one can buy 8 wood bats per one thin walled aluminum bat and goodness knows what carbon bats cost), and that the pros will not transition, perhaps we can shut down the production lines of carbon composite and aluminium bats and kick start some green renewable ash tree farming for sourcing the material for all the new competitors of Hillerich and Bradsby and their venerable Louiville sluggers. How radical is it to think a retro old school move could ever work?
I have no dog in this fight. My investment in baseball started two years ago when my kids started playing. And will end at the point that they stop playing (or I no longer need to drive them to practice/games).
I have no intrinsic love of the game and am happy to leave all the “how do we make it better” to those more knowledgeable.
Your would think a standardized set of bats that everyone uses would be a reasonable solution.
If this was Canada it would be about 500 dollar composite hockey sticks.
About your now illegal, but still not broken, easton bat of yesterday, if it were to surface today at the local park in the hands of the local 14 year old boy, what are the odds that the local governing body authority or umpire or coach would call it into question? Does that bat pass rigorous or casual inspection before game or after the pitcher gets beaned?
In softball and baseball it’s actually really easy, in most circumstances, for umpires to know whether a bat is legal or not. Current bats are all stamped with the marking of whatever approvals they have. The manufacturers build them to conform to certain standards, and they are tested to those standards, and stamped accordingly. Different leagues follow different rules, but the umpire just needs to know what rules the league follows and check the bats for the appropriate stamps. If the league is playing under rules that require bats meet USSSA standards, the umpire just needs to check bats before the game for the USSSA stamp, and tell the coaches to remove any that don’t have it.
USSSA ? Special sports reads to me like the sporting goods manufacturers are the governing bodies and that they make different rules for each league in order to get more gear purchased. My question is: Is there a COR standard in youth softball? Or, since the ball is “soft” and the hitters “girls” and the safety risk for the player to be minimal, then it is the wild west where anything goes in the pursuit of jacked ball speed off the bat? Hence, $400 bats and $80 both meeting standards. Jump up a grade in league and your $400 is no longer legal.
It should not be all about the gear!
I agree that it shouldn’t be all about the gear, but I think that bat standards are necessary. For softball, the bat standards are based on different things but ultimately what matters is the max speed a ball can leave the bat. The manufacturers will do the testing and certify that their bats meet the standards, and you’ll often find that they certify their bats to multiple standards. If one league follows rules requiring bats be ASA certified and another follows rules requiring USSSA you’ll like find that the same bat meets both. I know that my daughters’ bats were marked for USSSA, ASA, and NSA. Our league played under ASA rules.
In the absence of standards you could definitely see some crazy stuff being used.
My point being that a standard becomes THE standard because it meets the definition of being standard. Seems softball has too many standards wrt bats. And when sporting goods companies are the governing bodies, they play it soft and loose with THE standard preferring that more than a few labels apply. The more labels the more bats, the more prices, the more it becomes the gear and not the play or player. I find it sad and not just a rant.
But the manufacturers aren’t the governing bodies. The governing bodies, such as ASA, are independent not for profit organizations. I’m not so naive to believe that the manufacturers don’t have any influence, but I don’t believe that the manufacturers are completely driving the process.
When my sons played baseball, they had an outfield glove, infield glove, first base glove, catcher’s glove, and catcher’s gear.
They also had $275 composite bats in three lengths… 30, 31, and 32 inches.
TIL that children need different gloves to play different positions in baseball. Go figure.
Of course, because everybody’s kid is going D1 and then the pros. The money parents spend on kids for all sorts of camps so the people who they are paying can tell them just how great their kids are is nuts. SDG proved it earlier. His son might want to go back and coach at a camp and make $150K + a year to teach kids. Those parents paying to have their kids coached are all thinking their little Johnny is going D1 when in reality maybe, maybe 1 kid might, have a shot at D2.
You think you can play catcher with a fielder’s mitt?
This. I started coaching softball (rec league)12U and my starting catcher missed the first two games. My daughter had to step in with the parks equipment minus the mitt. It’s frustrating when the pitcher gets the strikeout but the ball slips out if the glove…and then a strikeout equals a runner in third (because it’s 12u rec softball). I’m just doing it so my daughter and the rest of the team can get some fun competition before they are no longer competitive.
However, Ialso have a son who plays competitive soccer and his goal is D1/pros. The expenses that I have a problem with are about travel. Drive all over the state of Florida? If we must. Fly to California? That’s an unnecessary experience…he’s only 13!
When my sons played baseball, they had an outfield glove, infield glove, first base glove, catcher’s glove, and catcher’s gear.
They also had $275 composite bats in three lengths… 30, 31, and 32 inches.
TIL that children need different gloves to play different positions in baseball. Go figure.
Of course, because everybody’s kid is going D1 and then the pros. The money parents spend on kids for all sorts of camps so the people who they are paying can tell them just how great their kids are is nuts. SDG proved it earlier. His son might want to go back and coach at a camp and make $150K + a year to teach kids. Those parents paying to have their kids coached are all thinking their little Johnny is going D1 when in reality maybe, maybe 1 kid might, have a shot at D2.
You think you can play catcher with a fielder’s mitt?
Way to go and pick the most obvious and least objectionable of the options.
Also, only Catchers and 1st Basemen have mitts.
When I was a kid playing baseball in the 80’s before travel became a thing or at least wasn’t where I grew up, the team had all the basic equipment. I was a catcher but I never bought a catchers mitt, just used the teams’ equipment. Same for bats.
Drive all over the state of Florida? If we must. Fly to California? That’s an unnecessary experience…he’s only 13!
It’s a sham. The early ID stuff is a total sham. But if you don’t play the game, it can be challenging. Not impossible, but challenging for sure and not as much fun for the kids. I know people who have tried to go no AAU in hoops or no travel soccer and it’s extremely difficult and time consuming, not to mention not fun for the kids.
My real issue is that nothing we do in the early days is predictive. All these elite tags, it’s bunk! In all but the rarest of circumstances, you don’t know what the kids are all going to look like until 11th grade in soccer. The role of development is so large that your best player at 11 may not be able to stay on the field at 16. Until U16, I don’t see a reason to be more than an hour from your house. Ever. Unless you are making a special trip to a memorial day or labor day tournament for fun. And I’ve got two ECNL kids, I’ve damn near seen it all.
They’ve created an economy though and the earlier they start, the more money they can make off of us. And if you have kids who want to play in college or in the pros, it’s damn near impossible to bypass them.
My real issue is that nothing we do in the early days is predictive. All these elite tags, it’s bunk! In all but the rarest of circumstances, you don’t know what the kids are all going to look like until 11th grade in soccer. The role of development is so large that your best player at 11 may not be able to stay on the field at 16. Until U16, I don’t see a reason to be more than an hour from your house. Ever. Unless you are making a special trip to a memorial day or labor day tournament for fun. And I’ve got two ECNL kids, I’ve damn near seen it all.
I think things can be SOMEWHAT predictive.
In swimming I think I saw something that 10% of top 100 swimmers at age 10 become top 100 swimmers at age 18. The numbers increase to 30% of the top 100 swimmers at age 14 go on to become top 100 swimmers at age 18.
So there is some tracking.
My brother growing up was an all everything athlete. Everyone knew early on that he was a much better athlete than everyone else locally. I remember hearing a professional athlete talking about “how do you know my kid will make it as a pro” - and his response was “the second he steps on the field, everyone starts complaining that he is older than everyone else.” This tracked with my brother. 99% of kids dont need to be traveling to play sports. The other 1% shouldnt because it doesnt really matter at young ages. Have the kid play up a year, and that solves most issues.
Its no different than smarts. You can generally tell who the smarter kids are early on. But the smarts themselves dont really equate to much, because you need to work ethic/focus/etc.
In sports though to make it (pro) because everyone wants to play sports, you need to be pretty elite + luck + drive/extra factors. A decent athlete can play D3 if they want.