Just what is a ''Conservative'' these days?

The Coffee Shop
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I’m serious here. While I was on vacation last week, I read the article about the president waving the prison time for Scooter Libby. It said that this was to please his conservative base. My reaction was ‘‘Huh? I thought conservatives stood for law and order. Why would they be pleased to let a convicted criminal off with no penalty?’’ But then I thought ‘‘Well, maybe I don’t know just what a "conservative’’ is."

I remember Barry Goldwater. He was a conservative. Man, was he a conservative. William F Buckley; now that was a conservative.
Pat Buchanan; small government, balanced budget, limited involvement in world events that don’t involve the US, Right to privacy, both personal and medical.

So what am I missing here. What does this president have to do with being conservative?

And truthfully, what does today’s “conservative” represent?

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And truthfully, what does today’s “conservative” represent? \\

I’ll take a stab at it, the Religious Right???

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Pat Buchanan; small government, balanced budget, limited involvement in world events that don’t involve the US, Right to privacy, both personal and medical.

I remember a time when I thought Pat was as far right as you could get. Now days he seems smack in the middle…and I don’t think its because HE changed.

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“What does this president have to do with being conservative?”

I will help you get started. I wouldn’t classify Bush as a conservative. He adopts some conservative policies, notably tax cuts. Having said A, though, he doesn’t say B. He doesn’t believe in small government. He campaigned as a compassionate conservative, which is to say a big government Republican. The Medicare drug entitlement is the obvious example, but there are lots of others.

I wouldn’t really classify Goldwater so much as a conservative as I would a Libertarian.

Pat Buchanan left conservativism behind a long time ago.

A conservative believes in limited government, low taxes, capitalism, strong defense, and absolute right and wrong as opposed to moral relativism. A conservative has a fundamental belief that freedom makes people the best they can be. A conservative has faith in the capabilities of the individual. A conservative wants to help as many people as possible to be independent rather dependent upon government.

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Pat Buchanan left conservativism behind a long time ago.

A conservative believes in limited government, low taxes, capitalism, strong defense, and absolute right and wrong as opposed to moral relativism. A conservative has a fundamental belief that freedom makes people the best they can be. A conservative has faith in the capabilities of the individual. A conservative wants to help as many people as possible to be independent rather dependent upon government.

Wow. Based on that definition, I’m wondering how you think Buchanan doesn’t qualify.

I’m also riotously amused that Barry considers Pat a middle of the roader. Maybe Barry doesn’t realize that Buchanan is another bigot who opposes gay marriage.

Strange world we live in.

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Buchanan has gone off on an isolationist extremist position. Conservatives believe in free trade and our ability to compete in the free market as individuals and as a country. He wants immigration completely stopped, which I don’t think of as a Conservative position either.

Barry pretty much figures everyone is a bigot and a racist except him, and I am really glad I haven’t been left out of his group.

Way back when the “bear any burden, pay any price” mentality used to be considered liberal. Now they call that neoconservative. Go figure.

Party mentalities change, but conservativism doesn’t. Thus Bush in 2005 essentially repeated Kennedys 1961 Inaugural Address, though not nearly as well. Go figure.

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Actually, if you look up “conservative” in Merriam-Webster (http://www.m-w.com/dictionary/conservative), there’s no mention of limited government or anything similar:

Main Entry: con·ser·va·tism http://www.m-w.com/images/audio.gif
Pronunciation: k&n-'s&r-v&-"ti-z&m
Function: noun
1 capitalized a : the principles and policies of a Conservative party b : the Conservative party
2 a : disposition in politics to preserve what is established b : a political philosophy based on tradition and social stability, stressing established institutions, and preferring gradual development to abrupt change
3 : the tendency to prefer an existing or traditional situation to change

So in a society that was already based on limited government, a “conservative” might advocate limited government. But in a society where the government has become essentially unlimited, such as our own, the “conservative” becomes an advocate of unlimited government.

The correct term for the philosophy of limited government (and some may be surprised at this), is not “conservatism” but “liberalism”:

Main Entry: lib·er·al·ism http://www.m-w.com/images/audio.gif
Pronunciation: 'li-b(&-)r&-"li-z&m
Function: noun
1 : the quality or state of being liberal
2 a often capitalized : a movement in modern Protestantism emphasizing intellectual liberty and the spiritual and ethical content of Christianity b : a theory in economics emphasizing individual freedom from restraint and usually based on free competition, the self-regulating market, and the gold standard c : a political philosophy based on belief in progress, the essential goodness of the human race, and the autonomy of the individual and standing for the protection of political and civil liberties d capitalized : the principles and policies of a Liberal party

Many years ago, in his seminal book The Road to Serfdom, F. A. Hayek made some wise remarks about conservatism:

“Conservatism . . . is not a social program; in its paternalistic, nationalistic, and power-adoring tendencies it is often closer to socialism than true liberalism; and with its traditionalistic, anti-intellectual, and often mystical propensities it will never, except in short periods of disillusionment, appeal to the young and all those others who believe that some changes are desirable if this world is to become a better place. A conservative movement, by its very nature, is bound to be a defender of established privilege and to lean on the power of government for the protection of privilege. The essence of the liberal position, however, is the denial of all privilege, if privilege is understood in its proper and original meaning of the state granting and protecting rights to some which are not available on equal terms to others.”

I delve into this further at http://www.humanactioncourse.info/pp/cf/HI30018.html.

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The dictionary definitions of liberal and conservative are worthless.

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“Conservatism . . . is not a social program; in its paternalistic, nationalistic, and power-adoring tendencies it is often closer to socialism than true liberalism; and with its traditionalistic, anti-intellectual, and often mystical propensities it will never, except in short periods of disillusionment, appeal to the young and all those others who believe that some changes are desirable if this world is to become a better place. A conservative movement, by its very nature, is bound to be a defender of established privilege and to lean on the power of government for the protection of privilege.”

Wow. Great definition. Economically, I see Conservative as antithesis to Progressive: It’s all about holding on to power and resitence to change. If you look it it that way, Conservativism may not appeal to the young, but it simply is a stronger philosophy than liberalism, and usually “wins,” especially in terms of business and commerce. I’m talking about the alliance of industry, big business and government which built this nation (for better or worse). Almost unstoppable and barely changeable … Big business and industry just want to keep rolling as they always have: A great example is the energy industry and auto makers utter restistence to change, which makes sense, since they have done so well for a century of status quo.

But its the same for enormous State programs, such as the military, or entitlement programs: They want to keep growing and expanding at all costs.

“The essence of the liberal position, however, is the denial of all privilege, if privilege is understood in its proper and original meaning of the state granting and protecting rights to some which are not available on equal terms to others.”

Interesting. Definitely the liberal position is more idealistic and less realistic.

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And truthfully, what does today’s “conservative” represent? \\

I’ll take a stab at it, the Religious Right???

I consider myself a Conservative, although a Canadian Conservative so I have a little socialism in there as well. :wink:

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“Economically, I see Conservative as antithesis to Progressive”

You could use some glasses.

As an example, resistance to change is economically a Union approach which is liberal almost by definition.

The perpetual state of change caused by the creative destruction forces of the free market is energetically supported by Conservatives and Libertarians and generally opposed by liberals.

Liberals believe in group rights. Conservatives in individual rights. Thus liberal ideas promote racial and sexual quotas which are anathema to Conservatives.

“The essence of the liberal position, however, is the denial of all privilege, if privilege is understood in its proper and original meaning of the state granting and protecting rights to some which are not available on equal terms to others.”

That definition is obviously from a different century. The liberal position is all about privilege. Liberals seek special rights for groups such as gays, minorities, women and whatever other group can be turned into victims and thus attract votes.

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“The dictionary definitions of liberal and conservative are worthless.”

Lexicographers make it their business to see how words are most commonly used in practice. In this case, the definitions are reasonably good if one is interested in how these two words are currently understood throughout most of the world, or how they have been understood throughout most of history, or how they are understood even by contemporary Americans when they talk about other countries, or how they are understood by serious scholars (both American and foreign). In addition, these definitions are fully consistent with the etymological origins of the two words.

Part of your problem may be that you’re confusing “liberal” with “Democrat.”

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While we are at it, what is a democrat these days?

Is it Joe Lieberman/John Kennedy or is it Michael Moore?

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Clearly the problem is yours if you think this is a definition of liberalism:

“a theory in economics emphasizing individual freedom from restraint and usually based on free competition, the self-regulating market, and the gold standard”

Maybe around 1900 that might have been accurate. Does that sound like Ted Kennedy to you?

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As an outsider, I see George Will as the ideal of what conservatism should look like, philosophically. President Bush comes off as an idealogically indecisive amateur by comparison. Even when I disagree with him on issues, I find myself pursuaded by the strength of his arguments and the cool authoritative style of delivery.

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defining Democrat and Conservative isn’t quite the same sort of thing. There’s an official registration process involved with becoming a Democrat (or Republican).

Democrat v. Repbulican, Conservative v. Liberal, make better comparisons.

-charles

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“Clearly the problem is yours if you think this is a definition of liberalism…”

Well, obviously the problem wouldn’t be just mine, but also a grievous error on the part of all the lexicographers, scholars, and commentators throughout most of the world and throughout most of history.

“Does that sound like Ted Kennedy to you?”

To repeat, part of your problem may be that you’re confusing “liberal” with “Democrat.” In addition, I’d suggest that you start looking at some sources other than Rush and Sean, whose intellectual credentials are less than sterling.

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I’ll stick with my question. Of the two comparisons I suggested, which is the face of the democrat party and (knowing the answer) how did it get from Lieberman/J. Kennedy to what we have now?

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The perpetual state of change caused by the creative destruction forces of the free market is energetically supported by Conservatives and Libertarians and generally opposed by liberals.

Liberal doesn’t mean socialist. For many, Liberal, traditionally means free market, but also free expression, free religion, free press, etc.

“Progressive” more correctly defines those who favor Unions, government regulation, socialism, etc. Conservativism resists these change.

Conservatives are not always for the same definition of free markets as Libertarian. The many alliances between government and industry (private contracting for public projects) may be a conservative approach but not free market.

Question for the neocons: How can we support “strong defense” (ie- keep growing military operations and spending, as has been the case almost nonstop for 60 years) but also “small government?” Don’t they contradict each other?

I see Defense as an enormous and constantly expanding State socialist enterprise, right alongside entitlements.

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The problem is that you cut and paste definitions you apparently don’t even read.

Just give me a link in recent press that shows a liberal advocating the following:

““a theory in economics emphasizing individual freedom from restraint and usually based on free competition, the self-regulating market, and the gold standard””

You won’t because you can’t.

Gold Standard? Good grief. I haven’t heard that advocated with the exception of one whacko since the 1970’s.

I can’t wait for that list of all those liberals arguing for free competition, and the self regulating market.