I’ve read your previous posts, most of it makes sense - I’m adjusting my own postion right now; narrower elbows and lower head seems to work fine.
When I change seat and bar position, the body just follows: Bar 1cm down = upper body 1 cm down without using any muscels. Feels a bit un-natural just after the change, but I think that’s a question on time om the bike.
But shrugged shoulders; using static muscle work to hold a specific position? Surely no problem for a short TT, but is it possible/advisable for a full IM?
If you can get on a computrainer to test the position you may be surprised… I found that I was losing about 20 watts when I pulled my bars way in… I thought it was comfortable but after a 20 min I realized it would take a lot of time to get used to. Im going to keep them wider and opt for the extra power/being able to breathe… when I have a few months to incorporate it I will.
It is something that you have to try and work on and see. Bjorn has been working on it since November and has no issues with it, but then again Bjorn is just… Bjorn.
Some of my other athletes that have been working on it for IM and 70.3 are getting along well with it, and a few are not. Some find that it is usuable on the long flat or down hill sections of a race course but not climbing or rollers. Although people do not like when I use pro cycling as an example but watch Levi TT. when he is on flat and downhill sections, watch how rolls his shoulders in even more and he shoves his head into his hands.
PM me your email and I will send some over some “prehab” exercises that will help with the stability and mobility of your shoulders making the roll in more comfortable.
It is something that you have to try and work on and see. Bjorn has been working on it since November and has no issues with it, but then again Bjorn is just… Bjorn.
Some of my other athletes that have been working on it for IM and 70.3 are getting along well with it, and a few are not. Some find that it is usuable on the long flat or down hill sections of a race course but not climbing or rollers. Although people do not like when I use pro cycling as an example but watch Levi TT. when he is on flat and downhill sections, watch how he shoves his head into his hands like below.
PM me your email and I will send some over some “prehab” exercises that will help with the stability and mobility of your shoulders making the roll in more comfortable.
Now all you need is a mirror on the stem so you can see where you are going!
There are numerous ways to describe how “wrong” this idea is for an IM, but just start with an simple energy usage example:
How many additional calories will you burn holding yourself in that position isometrically (you said static, but I knew what you meant). The key in any endurance event is going to involve efficiency and economy. Creating a riding position that requires muscles to fire isometrically doesn’t fall under that criteria.
You really should Go rebuild your position, and keep in mind that this isnt a 40kTT, and you also need those muscles to hold together some decent run form after the ride. Imagine for a second what it would feel like to run a 26.2 after “shrugging” for 5hrs.
Well, not many people are in the “know” except a hand full of people that closely work with Bjorn like Dr. Phil Skiba, myself and the guys at HED.
This thread is discussing shoulder rolling and shrugging which I am more than open to discuss as we have been doing a lot of work on it not just in the wind tunnel but with metabolic testing and emg work. Please try to keep it on track
Hey Jason I appreciate your posts on this subject.
My experience is that going narrow does not restrict breathing. It seems to have no influence on lung capacity or the ability to breath. For me angling the aero bars up and shrugging seems to require no more effort then riding with the shoulders away from the ears. I don’t know it’s it’s faster as I haven’t done any power testing.
The big difference I have noticed is that bike handling is not a steady. This is not a position that I would recommend for someone new to riding a TT bike.
In that 2nd photo of Levi his drop looks really small. I read Bjon’s old position had a drop of about 24cm. What is in now? It seems to me that angeling the bars up and shrugging requires a lot less drop.
I’m just saying, maybe Bjorn would win more races if he had coaches that don’t worry about shoulder rolling, shrugging, metabolic BS… blah blah blah…
I guess I’m confused, which wouldn’t be the first time. How does worrying about shoulder position on the bike affect one’s running. I guess I’m missing something obvious.
When someone’s training on the bike, are there some secret visualization techniques in which one could be engaging which would help one’s running?
In that 2nd photo of Levi his drop looks really small. … It seems to me that angeling the bars up and shrugging requires a lot less drop.
Levi’s ‘small’ amount of drop is more a function of his height than anything else. If you remove the helmet from his head, his head is inches below his back, i.e. he’s pretty damn low.
My thoughts on the whole ‘shrugging’ thing are that some people can make some position changes (elbows in/hands up) and their shoulder naturally collapse into a shrug.
Even if they don’t, there are times (a flat, windy stretch of the course, for instance) where it will probably help even if you have to concentrate on doing it. There are other times (big tailwind, climbing, sitting in the 7 meter ‘no draft zone’ or whatever) where it may be less important. So, even if you can’t maintain it for the full distance, it seems as though it would still have some utility if it’s faster for the rider (and I suspect for most people, it is faster).
I’m just saying, maybe Bjorn would win more races if he had coaches that don’t worry about shoulder rolling, shrugging, metabolic BS… blah blah blah…
When someone’s training on the bike, are there some secret visualization techniques in which one could be engaging which would help one’s running?
Yes, repeat the mantra:
"It’s not about the fastest bike split. It’s about getting to the finish line fastest. "
Well if you can ride faster by having a better position and by saving more energy for the run maybe he will be able to run faster. Please try to keep the thread on topic please as there is some great information here and we are not talking about Bjorn’s running at this time. By all means start your own thread to discuss the issue if you would like. I personally do not want to have to sift through regurgitated discussions on his running which have been beaten to death on this site.
Jason, this is intriguing stuff. To clarify what you’ve been describing, are there two elements for the shoulder in a fast position: 1) a roll, and 2) a shrug? And the roll comes from putting the arm rests close together and the shrug comes from, well, shrugging (shoulders move up towards top of head, which also moves them in)?
It might fall under that criteria if you burn 5 watts to save 10
T The key in any endurance event is going to involve efficiency and economy. Creating a riding position that requires muscles to fire isometrically doesn’t fall under that criteria.
