Itu=un?

[Lew_Kidder]

" . . . (For the sake of accuracy, I was never self-appointed, but hired as a professional PRO by the ETU).

Ooh, a paid shill, rather than a volunteer. That makes all the difference.

" . . . In 2000, the US supported McDonald for no other reason than the fear of the ITU powerbase moving away from North America. In addition, USAT also had Sisson “on the team”. How has USAT, American triathletes and triathlon in the US benefited from that decision?"

That’s WHY we did it, eh? And here all this time I thought it was because we couldn’t stomach another Austrian fascist. I guess we need to hire you to read our own minds.

Having coached an elite American triathlete for the past six years, I can speak with some authority to the second issue. Sheila found ITU races to be well organized, very competitive, and financially quite rewarding. She raced nearly exclusively on the ITU circuit, averaged nearly $200,000 U.S. each year, and was hardly the highest earner in the sport. Her money came from four sources: prize money, individual sponsorship, grants from the national federation, and fees for speaking appearances. But they all depended upon her activity, and her success, on the ITU circuit.

As for triathlon in the U.S. more generally, we have experienced an amazing period of growth over the past six years. Part has undoubtedly been due to the proliferation and marketing of the worldwide Ironman series, but some has also been due to the triathlon’s admittance into the Olympic movement. And you and I both know that without McDonald (and his Aussie “henchmen”), we wouldn’t have even made the program in 2000.

" . . . Yes, you’re right, the World Cup tag does help bring in sponsors for World Cup races. But many sponsors are short-term and never come back to the sport because they feel short-changed by the lack of return they get for their cash. The law of diminishing returns."

You been predicting this financial “crash” for the past six years. Fact is, however, the worldwide ITU circuit has steadily grown in number of races, average prize money per race, and total cash awarded. I sincerely hope you haven’t been betting much with the local bookmaker.

" . . . do the ends ever justify the means?"

More relevant question: Have you ever held your nose and voted for the lesser of two evils? Les McDonald smelled like musty socks in 2000, but Erica K-Z reeked of rotten eggs. In 2004, Sarah Springman was clearly a better choice than McDonald, and that’s why she got the support of USA Triathlon.

[Steven_Downes]

Two points, Lew:

First, to call anyone a “Fascist” just because they happen to have taken a different view to yourself might just go to suggest that you are losing the argument.

Throwing insults ought to be beneath you. But then, since you have been unable to answer any of the questions about your role in supporting McDonald’s rule, maybe you are getting a little desperate to justify your own actions and that of the ITU President who you have openly supported.

If it was not inconvenient for you after-the-fact justification of your action, you would see that there has never been any justification for supporting McDonald in the ITU presidency since aroud 1993… And wasn’t there a little run-in between McD and USAT even then!!!

Second, and a final question, Lew: if McDonald has done so much good for triathlon and is so good for the athletes, whom you know so well, then tell us all who Sheila - the international athlete nwhom you coach - voted for when the athletes’ commission had a vote at the recent ITU Congress.

[Gibraltar]

As President of the Gibraltar Triathlon Association, which is probably the smallest full member of ITU, i must point out that you are incorrect in assuming that the smaller federations get to travel, wine and dine at the expense of their NOC. Gibraltar is unfortunately not part of the Olympic movement and therefore does not have an NOC and as an Association we raise our own funds ny staging Triathlon events which instead of using to help pay for our travelling expenses we donate to Charity (£2200) this year. Our two members that travelled to Vancouver had to pay for the majority of this out of their own pockets!!

Also it is imperative that the one counrty one vote remains or else their is a danger that the wishes of one large country could out vote many smaller ones to the detriment of Triathlon. The majority of smaller National Federations are working very hard and for free to promote Triathlon in their countries. When we started 5 years ago we had only 22 participants in the first race and last year we had over 100 (which is not bad for a total adult population of only 12,000.

[draught_legal]

Wow!

This is one “Flame War” that i’m finding truly educational.

Gentlemen… as you work…

[Lew_Kidder]

" . . . Also it is imperative that the one counrty one vote remains or else their is a danger that the wishes of one large country could out vote many smaller ones to the detriment of Triathlon."

Leaving aside the “detriment” part, which is always in the eye of the beholder, it is true that in organizations like the European Union (or virtually any national legislature on earth), countries (states) with more people have more votes than those with fewer people. I always thought that to be one of the basic tenets of a democratic system.

In the current ITU, Gibralter (with 100 triathletes among a total population of 12,000) can neutralize the vote of the U.S.A. - a country with 55,000 annual members (plus another 150,000 one-day members) of the national governing body among a total population of 270,000,000. What’s fair about that? Moreover, to rub salt into the wound, Gibralter isn’t even classed as a country eligible to send athletes to the Olympic Games.

It’s nice to know that you paid “most” of your own way to Vancouver. Who paid the rest? And how did Gibralter vote on the key issues: the presidential race and the resolution to sanction the U.S. for sanctioning one of the largest and best organized races in the world?

[Lew_Kidder]

" . . . Unfortunately, the people founding the ITU (I was one of them) naively didn’t consider that issue - and getting Monaco, Luxemborg, and Liechtenstein to now cede their three to one hegemony over the U.S. is not going to happen willingly"

Or Gibralter (which isn’t a real nation and doesn’t even belong to the IOC). See one of the more recent posts.

[Gibraltar]

Lew, of course it is right that each country has one vote or else a large country like USA could impose whatever it thinks is right regardless of the views of other smaller Nations. This could lead to a similar dictatorship that you and 34 other Nations voted against at the recent Congress. Also if for example the larger nations had more votes and let us presume that Les had that Nations support where would that lead us??? You seem to be advocating a change that could in the future cause even more damage to our sport.

Here in Gibraltar we are fully committed and abide by the Constitution of the ITU, which as you know not all members do, and are therefore committed to equality between male and female triathletes which i beleive is the main issue with the event staged in the US. However we do see both sides to this argument and therefore abstained on the vote. One of the best things about small associations is that they are all invariably run by current or ex triathletes on a part time basis with full time careers in other fields and are threfore not likely to be “persuaded” to vote one way or another. In other words we can vote for whoever we think is the best person for the job as we are not able to be swayed by getting awarded Wold Champs or ITU World Cup races and coming from a triathlon background we are usually able to vote for the same candidate that the majority of age group triathletes around the world would vote for. We all know that the larger the organisation the more corrupt it is and it is for this precise reason that the smaller associations in all sport end up being the most important. We are able to stand up for what is right because we do not have anything that can be taken away from us.

Also for your information although Gibraltar is not currently recognised by the IOC i believe that we are currently taking legal action against the IOC for refusing to accept us under the previous President(who was Spanish of course!!)

The rest of the money to go to Vancouver was paid by the Gibraltar Triathlon Association from money raised throughout the year and we also received a $1000 grant from the ITU.

If you talk to the representitives from USAT who were in Vancouver they may let you know how we were likely to vote but let me just say you do not want to bite off the hand that may one day help you!!

[ajfranke]

You advocate your position very well Gibraltar. Thanks for your point of view. It is interesting.

Being an American, I, of course, think we should be able to outvote your tiny country, but it is educational to see the other point of view outlined.

[devashish_paul]

Art, see my concept earlier in this thread with some weighted voting based on membership. On the one hand, I agree that small countries should have a say, but on the other hand it is ridiculous, when country with perhaps 50 members have the same number of votes as a country with 10,000. As Lew correctly pointed out, the interest of the larger triathlon world is not well served when Andorra, Lesotho, Sri Lanka and Leichtenstein can outvote US+AUS+GERMANY (by the way, I am Canadian, so I’m conceding that my US and German friends would get more votes than we do under such a proposal).

[Lew_Kidder]

You talk of a potential tyranny by large nations - but how about the reverse? Isn’t that what we have now - when Gibralter, Moldava, Luxemborg, and the Cook Islands can outvote the U.S. and Great Britain two to one? The real test ought to be the core customer of the ITU and the sport. Is it countries? Or is it athletes? Why should 100 athletes from Gibralter and 45 from the Cook Islands have twice as much say in world triathlon affairs than do 55,000 from the U.S.?

As to Lifetime Fitness, what exactly constitutes gender unfairness in their format? Perhaps you are worried that the men are being treated unfairly, eh? After all, the women’s share of the LFT purses from the first three years of the race has been just a little bit more than double that of the men. It’s all bullshit, as Devashish Paul pointed out in the second post on this thread. All McDonald is trying to do is protect Corner Brook from legitimate competition - and if your “country” abstained on that one, shame on you.

By the by, I’m real happy to hear the Gibralter Association is run current or ex-triathletes. But how does that make you different from the U.S., for example? Everyone on the board of directors and darn near everyone in the national office is a current triathlete (or, if they can’t swim, a duathlete).

Bottom line is that there is already substantial institution protection for small nations in an Olympic sport. A sport can’t remain on the program unless its International Governing Body can count at least 75 nations as members. We can’t screw you, because you could leave and take Olympic eligibility with you. But what exactly is our protection from you?

[Gibraltar]

Shame on me? Shame on you for not knowing your history and not knowing how to spell Gibraltar. Gibraltar is celebrating it’s Tercentinary this year which makes us 300 years old. In another way Gibraltar has existed as a country for longer than the United States has been United so please do not insult us by stating that Gibraltar is not a country. Out of interest we have had an athlete race in the Hawaii Ironman and his country was listed as Gibraltar with the Gibraltar flag being carried on the parade of nations. I suppose to your way of thinking our flag should have been smaller than yours as we only had one athlete competing!!!

Why should you need protecting from smaller nations? To me, you should only need protection if you are doing something that is not in the best interests of our sport. I can assure you that the Gibraltar Triathlon Association will always vote for what is best for Triathlon and Triathletes and as we are so small and self funded we cannot be “persuaded” to vote a particular way. The good news is that the 100 triathletes from Gibraltar and the 45 Triathletes from Cook Islands (and i know Martin Cross very well) will all probably have the same views on our sport as the 55,000 triathletes from USA. You see Lew triathletes are a unique kind of people and tend to really love the sport deep down and this is what makes our sport so wonderful. So lets all try and keep it that way!

[GregX]

I personally believe USAT ought to enlist the support of the major triathlon nations (Six nations: Great Britain, Canada, Australia, New Zealand, the U.S., and Brazil send over 80% of the athletes competing in age group divisions at each world championship) and take a very hard line with the ITU. I would enunciate bottom line positions on a number of key issues, and if the ITU did not meet those bottom line positions, the group would walk from the ITU and form a parallel federation.

A great idea. But is such a thing remotely possible? If it is possible, what do you think grassroots athletes can do to actually make this happen? Do you think it would ever be possible for this ‘parallel federation’ to form a new kind of pro triathlon race series that does not include bike drafting?

[Lew_Kidder]

I don’t know you personally - and though my posts may sound harsh, I intended to limit this discussion to a debate on the issues. Since you bring it up, however, I apologize for misspelling Gibraltar - and promise not to let it happen again. Will you in turn apologize for the several spelling and gramatical errors found in your posts? A selection:

“self funded” - should be self-funded (hyphenated when used as adjective). Also see “part time basis”, “full time careers”, etc.

“Nations support” - nation’s - the word should not be capitalized in this context, and because it is a possessive adjective, should contain an apostrophe. Location of the apostrophe depends on whether the root word is singular or plural.

“ex triathletes” - “ex” is not an word in and of itelf, so the compound word needs a hyphen

“threfore” - simple misspelling, I presume

“i beleive” - the first person pronoun is capitalized, while the second word is a simple misspelling

“for who” and “for whoever” - when used in the objective case, the correct pronoun is “whom”

“Wold Champs” - I assume you mean “World” Champs

“the same candidate that” - when referring to a person, rather than an object or place, the correct word is “who” rather than “that”

I take it you have no logcial answer for my question on why 145 triathletes in Gibraltar and the Cook Islands ought to have twice the votes as 55,000 in the U.S., so you say your votes are more likely to be selfless than would ours. What a fricking crock - but just what I would expect from someone who has outsized power under the current system. Just try to get a sitting legislator to vote in favor of term limits. Note: As a test to your theory, however, you will of course recall that the Cook Islands was a principal supporter of Erica Koenig-Zenz (who later attempted an e-mail coup against the leader of the ETU) when she ran against McDonald in 2000 and later was one of the plaintiffs in the infamous lawsuit against the ITU in Vancouver. But I guess you guys know better about these sorts of things, eh?

I also assume you have no defensible answer to my query as to the problem with the Lifetime Fitness format. I should have shame for an innocent spelling error, but your acquiesence to blatant discrimation against the U.S. is of little (or no) moment? With this power for objective discrimination, we should probably cede to you our veto power in the Security Council.

[Steven_Downes]

Hey, Lew! Wow, what a tolerant and enlightened sort of chap you are! But after the patronising English lesson, any chance you might start using English English, rather that horrible Americanised (note, -ised ending, rather than the use of the -ized)?

Without wishing to patronise, one fundamental principle of democracy is one member/citizen, one vote. Since the ITU, as you well know, draws its membership from national federations, then Gibraltar’s one vote is just as valid as that of the United Kingdom, or even the mighty United States. Those who are so arrogant to suppose that their vote ought to have added weight normally have scant regard for the true principle of democracy at all (so much for the Fascist jibe previously, eh, Lew?).

Next, you’ll be saying that US Presidential elections ought in future to be determined by the organisation or party with the largest election budget.

Anyway, back to the point - the potential and need for reform of the ITU.

All the discussion about how many votes any NF might have misses an essential point: it would make no difference to the outcome whatsoever, because under McDonald, he would ensure that the “right” result happened.

I am a little surprised that no one has questioned the remark from our good friend from Gibraltar who said that his NF received a $1,000 grant to attend Vancouver from the ITU.

Was this available to every NF? And if so, is this - some $70,000 at least - the best way of spending the ITU’s precious Olympic income (I’d suggest not… see previous posts about self-serving officials)? McDonald, of course, must believe that every cent was well spent.

But who at the ITU picks and chooses who gets to attend the Congress?

It seems the ITU knew no limits in spending its membership’s cash to make sure the right countries turned up i Vancouver.

I am aware that at a European meeting in Valencia earlier this year, the ITU promised to pay the travel and hotel costs of anyone accompanying a federation president to the Vancouver Congress. What is the benefit to te sport of doing this?

I have also seen an e-mail, apparently sent from a senior ITU official’s personal e-mail address, offering to meet the travel and hotel costs of a sympathetic ex-official of one of the smallest (and broke) NFs if they attended Vancouver in place of the properly elected president from that country, as long as they made sure they voted the right way.

Les McDonald has subverted the numbers game throughout his reign in the distribution of grant aid to small feds to win over their support - and in replacing their officials, and even the entire federation, if they did not toe his party line.

He has even attempted to give votes to countries that do not exist as a separate triathlon entity - in 2000, Scotland, a constituent part of the UK, was one o a number of states improperly included in the ITU’s list of members and invited to Perth to vote (for McD, naturally). A bit like giving Texas its own vote in additio to the US.

One non-country - Netherlands Antilles, a Dutch territory - did get a vote to which it was not entitled, because one of Les’s mates happened to be in town that week to take part in the age group event.

In this respect, Lew’s point about the true number of federations and the ITU’s Olympic status is worth close examination, since some of the NFs on the ITU list barely exist in an active triathlon sense, if any sense at all.

In all this, like the old Communist that he is, McDonald has abused democracy to support his cause. Changing the allocation of votes would alter very little (and nor would Canada or Australia support any breakaway - look at the ITU board members).

But then, hey, if voting changed anything, they’d abolish it.

[Gibraltar]

Well, what a reply! Although i do feel that you have missed some of the main points. Your shame was not in spelling my country incorrectly but stating that Gibraltar is not a country a point which you conveniently forget to raise in your reply. i do apologise for my spelling mistakes, although there are also many in your reply, as i am a lazy typist and cannot be bothered to do spellcheck!

Do you always try this hard to make someone not like you? I think your comment about your harsh replies was a bit understated! I have only tried to put forward the view of a small association, yes we are limited in terms of people and experience and we will certainly not be able to change the ways of the ITU single handed but we try and do the best we can for the development of Triathlon within our own area. We listen to other Federations and triathletes and try to do what is best for the sport and for the athletes that participate in it.

I have tried to answer your question on why i think we should have the same voting power as larger federations and i think i put forward a fairly reasonable argument and i do appreciate your alternative views on the subject even though i do not agree with them. I did not say that my vote was likely to be more selfless than yours only that the risk of me being persuaded to vote one way or another is less likely as we have much less (if anything) to lose when compared to a larger federation. There was no need to say that i had outsized power under the current system as i felt that you were starting to get too personal.

The Lifetime fitness format is, i admit, a difficult one to deal with although it should be noted that the resolution was passed by a majority although Gibraltar did not vote either way as we tried to take on board both parties views on the subject. With this in mind i do not agree with your statement that we have blatantly discriminated against USAT. Sitting on the fence may not be the best thing but blatant discrimination it certainly is not. i hope you have a great Christmas and New Year and if you are ever in Southern Europe please get in touch as we would love to show you around the wonderful Rock of Gibraltar.

Chris Walker, President, Gibraltar Triathlon.

[devashish_paul]

Just to put a humerous spin on this thread, with Chris Walker from the rock, speaking about triathlon, how come the ulitmate James Bond Fan, Tom D is not piping in and dreaming up some kind of wild triathlon at the rock starring Mr. Bond (or would that be Tom) himself ?

[jhc]

I thought Gibraltar was still a territory of the UK…

[Lew_Kidder]

Fair enough, Chris. We’ll agree to disagree on a couple of issues. Have a great Christmas.

[Lew_Kidder]

" . . . Without wishing to patronise, one fundamental principle of democracy is one member/citizen, one vote. Since the ITU, as you well know, draws its membership from national federations, then Gibraltar’s one vote is just as valid as that of the United Kingdom, or even the mighty United States. Those who are so arrogant to suppose that their vote ought to have added weight normally have scant regard for the true principle of democracy at all (so much for the Fascist jibe previously, eh, Lew?)."

If this is such a fundamental principle, why is there weighted voting in the EU?

[Steven_Downes]

Simple answer, Lew: there isn’t.

The European parliament is elected on the basic principle of one person per vote within each constituency.

But are you sure you wish to hold up the EU as a paragon of democratic virtue? The European parliament is a powerless talking shop; it is the virtually unaccountable European Commission that holds real power - something entirely analogous with the ITU HQ at Vancouver.