It's become clear few of you

… have read, or will read, the mueller report. most notoriously gphin305, who is nevertheless an expert on it. so, to recap…

section 1: details what russia did to attack america’s election. shows that many members central to trump’s campaign were falling over themselves to do favors for, curry favor with, russia. the indictments returned of non-russians were for wire fraud, perjury, mail fraud, and for russians, breaking election laws along with identity theft and some other stuff.

there were 2 reasons indictments for conspiracy were not returned against trump officials: lack of evidence substantial enough to support a likely conviction; and ignorance. if you read about the trump tower meeting, what probably saved don jr an indictment is his probable lack of any sense that what he was doing was illegal or wrong. don jr was utterly inscrutable. one rare case of: it pays to be a blockhead.

section 2: recounts between a dozen and 15 instances of potential obstruction of justice. each recounting followed what would become, to the reader, a familiar pattern. first, the narrative of the occasion (e.g., directing mcgahn to lie). then, an analysis of the behavior. then, in each case, a recitation of: the “obstructive act” (what it was); then, the “nexus between the act and an official proceeding” (how the obstructive behavior would affect the outcome of, say, a grand jury proceeding); and third, the “corrupt intent”, that is, the knowledge that what you’re doing is wrong. my takeaway: all of these elements are necessary for a successful prosecution of obstruction.

here is why i’ve come down on believing that mueller would be disappointed if congress does not impeach trump: in a number of those narratives, the report itself provides mitigating or competing evidence. maybe the intent couldn’t be successfully demonstrated. however, in at least 4 or 5 instances, there is no mitigating narrative. there was a meaningful, impactful, obstructive act that was taken with corrupt intent designed to materially affect a proceeding.

section 3: what section 3, you might ask? it’s short. the president’s personal lawyers claimed - in correspondence to mueller - that the president is not capable of obstructing justice because he’s granted absolute powers under article II of the constitution, tho they conceded (according to mueller) that he may be exposed through committing acts that “do not involve exercises” of his constitutional authority (such as bribery; suborning perjury).

to those argue that article II powers are absolute: mueller goes on at length to dispute this. one central thesis of his is that article I gives congress the “authority to define generally applicable criminal law and apply it to all persons - including the president.” also, article III gives courts “an equally strong interest in being protected against obstructive acts, whatever their source.” he further believes “the grand jury cannot achieve its constitutional purpose absent protection from corrupt acts.”

mueller also notes that, “the concept of ‘faithful execution’ connotes the use of power in the interest of the public, not in the office holder’s personal interests.”

in other words, mueller is saying that “absolute” powers granted the president cannot be absolute if they impede the “absolute” powers of the congress, or the courts. where these absolute powers collide, one must find a theme that reconciles these. and here it is:

“the protection of the criminal justice system from corrupt acts by any person - including the president - accords with the fundamental principle of our govt that no person in this country is so high that he is above the law.”

about the OLC memo: it beggars credulity that barr does not know, did not know, does not understand, that mueller feels constrained by this. probably 4 times throughout the report mueller referenced the OLC guidance keeping him from forming a prosecutorial opinion. it is my guess that barr was not lying. he just didn’t read the report! he’s like gphin305. no need to read it. is not motivated to read anything that might cloud otherwise clear thoughts. or perhaps just monumentally lazy.

about mueller’s press statement: to show how shallow and lazy people are, and i mean politicians, news media, everyone who failed to acknowledge this fact: he wasn’t simply exhorting people to read his report. for lengthy parts of his 10min monologue he was simply reading his report! basically, it was the audio version of the report, word-for-word, abridged. mueller, in his private joke, took 10min to sit folks down and read excerpts from the report he himself knew few of the reporters and news folks had read (or they’d have immediately recognized the word-for-word text).

and finally, this document was accompanied by nearly 2,500 footnotes. it’s exhaustive, hard slogging at times, no it doesn’t read like a novel, but it’s expertly done by the cream of career investigators and prosecutors. if you contend otherwise, you display your ignorance for everyone to see, your public shame saved only by the fact that you live behind a screen name.

there you go. just saved you $1.99 on amazon kindle you weren’t going to spend anyway.

Barr’s summary was a little more nuanced.

After 2 years of this Carny, you would think Barr would start to question his views on executive power.

I think you misspelled TOTAL EXONERATION!!!

Sad.

Dan you’re a stable AND generous genius. I’ll spend that $1.99 saved on my ticket to Kona.

Here’s a viewpoint from the cheap seats:

I read the report. I found it very difficult to understand and trudge through partly because I’m not particularly bright, partly because I didn’t attend law school, partly because I don’t understand some of the criminal nuance, and partly because it IS actually difficult to understand.

I have two friends/colleagues who were charged by the DOJ (completely unrelated matters) for white collar crimes. Both faced up to 15 felonies and would’ve spent the rest of their lives in prison. The indictments we damning, to say the least. In one case (about 10 yrs ago), my friend/colleague hired solid lawyers and fought like hell. It went to trial and halfway through the trial, the judge dismissed the case, with prejudice, and lashed out at the DOJ for crafting a bullshit case.

In the second case (very recent), my friend/colleague hired solid lawyers and after 12 mos of fighting the evidence, the DOJ withdrew the case, dismissed all charges with prejudice.

My point being; at this juncture, the entire narrative is one-sided. There is no legal defense, just a lynch mob media narrative that Mueller fuels. Since Mueller did not find sufficient evidence to recommend criminal charges for conspiracy/collusion, then it’s best he did not recommend charges. If he found sufficient evidence for obstruction but did not recommend criminal charges, then he should’ve stated it directly. "We find there is sufficient evidence for criminal charges against President Trump for obstruction of justice but due to the OLC we do not recommend criminal charges in a court of law and instead rely on Congress to begin impeachment proceedings. (I believe this is what you believe he stated…though he didn’t explicitly state it).

But he didn’t. He left this open to interpretation. “Mueller laid out the path for impeachment.” “Mueller would’ve charged for obstruction but for the OLC”. That’s isn’t what he said. He wallowed around the topic and left it open to nonstop mind reading and supposition. In this regard, he failed to deliver. He set up the plot line then walked away just before the final act. I am thoroughly unimpressed by his actions. I’m impressed by the thoroughness of the investigation but not by his non-response response on obstruction.

Now, in my very simple/non-lawyer/avg IQ brain, I think it’s clear the President obstructed or attempted to obstruct and should be held to account either in the courts or by Congress. It’s very nuanced (TO ME) because of the mitigating factors and the fact that I don’t see the ‘smoking gun’ and believe Trump’s lawyers will be able to deal with it given the chance to mount a legal defense. If this were in the courts, I highly doubt Trump would be found guilty of obstruction, and I believe this is why Mueller punted from the opponents 2 yard line. I mean, if NO ONE is above the law or the courts, then charge the President with a crime and get on with it. Not, hey - no one, including the President is above the law or the courts, but because the President cannot be charged in the courts I’m stating that he actually is above the law? Do I have that right?

Now it becomes purely political. Dems don’t want to impeach for political reasons. Pubs will block it in the Senate for political reasons. It’s no longer about high crimes and misdemeanors, just simple politics. Frankly, I believe the Dems can start impeachment proceedings and craft a PR strategy that is effective and will counter the potential negative impact on 2020 elections, but they’re not capable of managing a proper PR campaign.

Dan you’re a stable AND generous genius. I’ll spend that $1.99 saved on my ticket to Kona.

extremely stable and generous genius. and calm. extremely calm. and don’t use that word kona in this forum. that’s a dirty, filthy, disgusting word. you’re nasty.

Dan you’re a stable AND generous genius. I’ll spend that $1.99 saved on my ticket to Kona.

extremely stable and generous genius. and calm. extremely calm. and don’t use that word kona in this forum. that’s a dirty, filthy, disgusting word. you’re nasty.

In your opinion how many AOC’s are you on the Barry genius scale?

Sorry, should have replied here…my bad. Yes, the new thread is appropriate.

"Barr said Mueller examined 10 episodes that could have amounted to obstruction, but that he and Deputy Attorney General Rod Rosenstein ultimately determined the facts failed to amount to evidence of a crime. "

It wasn’t Muellers job to provide an exoneration of Trump…his job was to determine if he committed a crime…as all the Democrats and liberal news pundits have been saying he did for the past two years. Nothing there…never was. So now what…it wasn’t proven that there is no there there so something has to be there and we need to impeach to find it… talk about desperation. Now even his boss has come out and said he “disagrees with Muellers obstruction* theories”. *The neverTrumpers will try to keep this alive for as long as they can…I mean “did you read the report”? This bs about Trump obstruction needs to stop…find a candidate who can do a better job and get him out. Until then, enjoy the ride and find something else to fix…like the streets of LA…right, Kay and your buddy patentattorney?

Can’t wait for the upcoming Barr investigation…now there we will see some there there.

https://www.politico.com/…-obstruction-1280892

ps…Dan, thanks for the mention but I will never take credit for a “report” written by an obviously biased buddy of a piece of crap Comey who wasted $40 million of taxpayer dollars and tried to legitimize it with his farce of a press conference…to explain “the speaks for itself report”

Dan, thank you for the concise summary. Hopefully it will be helpful for those unable to find the time to read the report.

JD21, I agree with pretty much everything you said. I think Mueller should have been more forthright. He was clearly naive as to what Barr would do and say, and maybe also naive about what Congress would do. I suspect he thought he was being forthright enough, but perhaps underestimated the power of partisan politics. I also think you’re right re the Dems and their inability to mount an effect PR strategy to accompany impeachment. Nadler seems to be trying to educate the public better, but we’ll see where that goes. Pelosi and Schumer are fair inept overall, IMO.

In case you want to save $1.99 and read it

Report On The Investigation Into Russian Interference In The 2016 Presidential Election

Volume 2 starts on page 208
.

In this regard, he failed to deliver. He set up the plot line then walked away just before the final act. I am thoroughly unimpressed by his actions.

He’s in a no-win situation there, though, in my opinion.

Mueller doesn’t want to be anyone’s savior.

He doesn’t want to be the Democrat’s savior by telegraphing he thinks they should impeach because he couldn’t charge due to DoJ policy. That’s not his job to decide what is or isn’t impeachable. That’s Congress’ job and Congress’ job alone. He should not put his thumb on the scale.

And he doesn’t want to be Trump’s savior by clearing him of charges when it’s possible that the evidence would meet the bar of an obstruction charge either per a different DoJ policy or in another jurisdiction (e.g. a Congressional impeachment inquiry.)

He did walk a fine line. But I can’t say that I see a better line for him to walk. He does not want to be used as a tool by either political party. So he dumped the document on you and said, “You read it and fucking decide for yourself.”

I read the report… if he found sufficient evidence for obstruction but did not recommend criminal charges, then he should’ve stated it directly.

i can’t reconcile these two statements: that you read the report and that you don’t get why he didn’t recommend criminal charges. he spelled it out why he couldn’t recommend charges. in fact, he spelled it out multiple times, rendering superfluous his own text, because he literally wrote, almost word-for-word, the same thing multiple times, so that you would - i guess - be certain not to miss it. nevertheless, mindbogglingly, many people miss it.

Now it becomes purely political. Dems don’t want to impeach for political reasons. Pubs will block it in the Senate for political reasons. It’s no longer about high crimes and misdemeanors, just simple politics.

you make two mistakes in your post, in my opinion. familiar mistakes. first, the, “i know a guy” argument. i know a guy who adopted a dog from the pound; the dog turned out to have a lot of bad behaviors; therefore the entire system of animal control and pet adoption is called into serious question.

second, that this is a political process, allowing you to throw your hands up and by a cynic. you read the report. you read the evidence. you read the exculpatory statements embedded in the evidence. (these were top guys trying very hard to not overreach.) the evidence is there. no, the democrats are not being political. pelosi is being political. a large number of them are wrestling with whether to override their political instincts in favor of justice.

the question itself, the impeachment process, is not political. it is judicial. it makes the house the grand jury, chief justice the judge, the senate the jury, house leaders the prosecutors. which feeds back into mueller’s reason for not recommending indictment. it’s unconstitutional (according to mueller) to bring charges, and it’s therefore unfair to say you’d bring charges. mueller explains this in the report! the accused cannot avail himself to a public exoneration; cannot be granted a fair and speedy trial. the very protections the president has from prosecution while in office mean he can’t avail himself of the rights of regular citizens.

My point being; at this juncture, the entire narrative is one-sided. There is no legal defense, just a lynch mob media narrative that Mueller fuels. Since Mueller did not find sufficient evidence to recommend criminal charges for conspiracy/collusion, then it’s best he did not recommend charges. If he found sufficient evidence for obstruction but did not recommend criminal charges, then he should’ve stated it directly. "We find there is sufficient evidence for criminal charges against President Trump for obstruction of justice but due to the OLC we do not recommend criminal charges in a court of law and instead rely on Congress to begin impeachment proceedings. (I believe this is what you believe he stated…though he didn’t explicitly state it).

But he didn’t. He left this open to interpretation. “Mueller laid out the path for impeachment.” “Mueller would’ve charged for obstruction but for the OLC”. That’s isn’t what he said. He wallowed around the topic and left it open to nonstop mind reading and supposition. In this regard, he failed to deliver. He set up the plot line then walked away just before the final act. I am thoroughly unimpressed by his actions. I’m impressed by the thoroughness of the investigation but not by his non-response response on obstruction.

He spelled it out as clearly as he could:
“Third, we considered whether to evaluate the conduct we investigated under the Justice Manual standards governing prosecution and declination decisions, but we determined not to apply an approach that could potentially result in a judgment that the President committed crimes. The threshold step under the Justice Manual standards is to assess whether a person’s conduct " constitutes a federal offense.” U.S. Dep’t of Justice, Justice Manual§ 9-27.220 (2018) (Justice Manual). **Fairness concerns counseled against potentially reaching that judgment when no charges can be **brought. The ordinary means for an individual to respond to an accusation is through a speedy and public trial, with all the procedural protections that surround a criminal case. An individual who believes he was wrongly accused can use that process to seek to clear his name. In contrast, a prosecutor’s judgment that crimes were committed, but that no charges will be brought, affords no such adversarial opportunity for public name-clearing before an impartial adjudicator.5
**The concerns about the fairness of such a determination would be heightened in the case of a sitting President, where a federal prosecutor’s accusation of a crime, even in an internal report, could carry consequences that extend beyond the realm of criminal **justice. OLC noted similar concerns about sealed indictments. Even if an indictment were sealed during the President’s term, OLC reasoned, “it would be very difficult to preserve secrecy,” and if an indictment became public, “he stigma and opprobrium” could imperil the President’s ability to govern.“6 Although a prosecutor’s internal report would not represent a formal public accusation akin to an indictment, the possibility of the report’s public disclosure and the absence of a neutral adjudicatory forum to review its findings counseled against potentially determining "that the person’s conduct constitutes a federal offense.” Justice Manual § 9-27.220.
Fourth, if we had confidence after a thorough investigation of the facts that the President clearly did not commit obstruction of justice, we would so state. Based on the facts and the applicable legal standards, however, we are unable to reach that judgment. The evidence we obtained about the President’ s actions and intent presents difficult issues that prevent us from conclusively determining that no criminal conduct occurred. Accordingly, while this report does not conclude that the President committed a crime, it also does not exonerate him."

I read the report… if he found sufficient evidence for obstruction but did not recommend criminal charges, then he should’ve stated it directly.

i can’t reconcile these two statements: that you read the report and that you don’t get why he didn’t recommend criminal charges. he spelled it out why he couldn’t recommend charges. in fact, he spelled it out multiple times, rendering superfluous his own text, because he literally wrote, almost word-for-word, the same thing multiple times, so that you would - i guess - be certain not to miss it. nevertheless, mindbogglingly, many people miss it.

the question itself, the impeachment process, is not political. it is judicial. it makes the house the grand jury, chief justice the judge, the senate the jury, house leaders the prosecutors. which feeds back into mueller’s reason for not recommending indictment. it’s unconstitutional (according to mueller) to bring charges, and it’s therefore unfair to say you’d bring charges. mueller explains this in the report! the accused cannot avail himself to a public exoneration; cannot be granted a fair and speedy trial. the very protections the president has from prosecution while in office mean he can’t avail himself of the rights of regular citizens.
It has the trappings of a court proceeding but save for Nixon, every Presidential impeachment vote has been politically motivated.

is not political. it is judicial.

I’m 99% on the same page as you, but, let’s be honest, impeachment is somewhere between political and judicial. There are the trappings of a judicial process, but Congress itself is nothing like a true randomly selected jury of regular people with no direct interest in the outcome. They have their own very clear political biases, and often very strong interests in the outcome. And I don’t mean that as a pejorative of Congress. It’s how it was intended to be, per the Constitution.

In case you want to save $1.99 and read it

Report On The Investigation Into Russian Interference In The 2016 Presidential Election

Volume 2 starts on page 208

my first go-round was a pdf. that was hell to read. my second was the $1.99 kindle version, and there are free kindle versions. what i got was a nice mix of features and cheapness. what i mostly wanted was the ability to highlight notes for later. but this is all moot. you can lead a whore to the mueller report, but you can’t make him read it.

My point being; at this juncture, the entire narrative is one-sided. There is no legal defense, just a lynch mob media narrative that Mueller fuels. Since Mueller did not find sufficient evidence to recommend criminal charges for conspiracy/collusion, then it’s best he did not recommend charges. If he found sufficient evidence for obstruction but did not recommend criminal charges, then he should’ve stated it directly. "We find there is sufficient evidence for criminal charges against President Trump for obstruction of justice but due to the OLC we do not recommend criminal charges in a court of law and instead rely on Congress to begin impeachment proceedings. (I believe this is what you believe he stated…though he didn’t explicitly state it).

But he didn’t. He left this open to interpretation. “Mueller laid out the path for impeachment.” “Mueller would’ve charged for obstruction but for the OLC”. That’s isn’t what he said. He wallowed around the topic and left it open to nonstop mind reading and supposition. In this regard, he failed to deliver. He set up the plot line then walked away just before the final act. I am thoroughly unimpressed by his actions. I’m impressed by the thoroughness of the investigation but not by his non-response response on obstruction.

He spelled it out as clearly as he could:
“Third, we considered whether to evaluate the conduct we investigated under the Justice Manual standards governing prosecution and declination decisions, but we determined not to apply an approach that could potentially result in a judgment that the President committed crimes. The threshold step under the Justice Manual standards is to assess whether a person’s conduct " constitutes a federal offense.” U.S. Dep’t of Justice, Justice Manual§ 9-27.220 (2018) (Justice Manual). **Fairness concerns counseled against potentially reaching that judgment when no charges can be **brought. The ordinary means for an individual to respond to an accusation is through a speedy and public trial, with all the procedural protections that surround a criminal case. An individual who believes he was wrongly accused can use that process to seek to clear his name. In contrast, a prosecutor’s judgment that crimes were committed, but that no charges will be brought, affords no such adversarial opportunity for public name-clearing before an impartial adjudicator.5
**The concerns about the fairness of such a determination would be heightened in the case of a sitting President, where a federal prosecutor’s accusation of a crime, even in an internal report, could carry consequences that extend beyond the realm of criminal **justice. OLC noted similar concerns about sealed indictments. Even if an indictment were sealed during the President’s term, OLC reasoned, “it would be very difficult to preserve secrecy,” and if an indictment became public, “he stigma and opprobrium” could imperil the President’s ability to govern.“6 Although a prosecutor’s internal report would not represent a formal public accusation akin to an indictment, the possibility of the report’s public disclosure and the absence of a neutral adjudicatory forum to review its findings counseled against potentially determining "that the person’s conduct constitutes a federal offense.” Justice Manual § 9-27.220.
Fourth, if we had confidence after a thorough investigation of the facts that the President clearly did not commit obstruction of justice, we would so state. Based on the facts and the applicable legal standards, however, we are unable to reach that judgment. The evidence we obtained about the President’ s actions and intent presents difficult issues that prevent us from conclusively determining that no criminal conduct occurred. Accordingly, while this report does not conclude that the President committed a crime, it also does not exonerate him."

thank you.

Here is a great article explaining how Mueller stepped on his dick in issuing the report, by comparing it to the Ken Starr report.

https://eand.co/ken-starr-recommended-impeachment-so-why-wont-mueller-fdd35b611562

Dan, thank you for the concise summary. Hopefully it will be helpful for those unable to find the time to read the report.

JD21, I agree with pretty much everything you said. I think Mueller should have been more forthright. He was clearly naive as to what Barr would do and say, and maybe also naive about what Congress would do. I suspect he thought he was being forthright enough, but perhaps underestimated the power of partisan politics. I also think you’re right re the Dems and their inability to mount an effect PR strategy to accompany impeachment. Nadler seems to be trying to educate the public better, but we’ll see where that goes. Pelosi and Schumer are fair inept overall, IMO.

Kay, isn’t that like saying Al Gore educating the public on climate change…or maybe OJ talking about being falsely accused of a crime??