It is turtling but you may try dropping your chin, that helps me when I’m trying to turtle.
Are those your bike shorts, or SneakySpeed’s bra?
There are reams of evidence that a saddle that is too high (or too low, but too high is worse) reduces gross efficiency, increases metabolic strain, etc., during submaximal exercise. Morever, it has been directly shown that a saddle that is too high impairs short-term power output.
Thanks for your very knowledgeable input. Please don’t construe me to be arguing with you.
But let me ask this: “too high” means what? His knee angle is what, 158? Does the evidence from the studies show that 158 is “too high”?
Do the studies that show a decrease in power output from being “too high” define this by knee angle, ankle angle, or a combination of the two?
I’m asking because I think his ankle angle puts his knee angle in the good range…and I’m wondering if the ankle angle has been shown by itself to be something that ‘reduces gross efficiency, increases metabolic strain’. This because my assumption is that that info was related to knee angle.
My knee angle is more like 148, not 158:
http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d156/Triathlon-Lawyer/kneeangle.jpg
Oh, and since the shorts keep getting mentioned, they’re Speedo Endurance. PBT rocks.
Sorry, but I think it is. For example, you’d very hard-pressed to find any professional cyclist riding so toe-down, even aboard their TT bike.
And even if I did, it’d probably have to be some relative unknown. Right, roadhouse?
touche! but i would have agreed with you anyhow. i don’t buy into all that "Your seat is too high cause we on this forum say it is nonsense ( in your pic it looks perfect for you to myself) or that your toe is pointed down too much. Watch a lot of the pro cyclists and you’ll see them do that, one of the reasons why when a pro triathlete and a pro cyclist meet, the pro CYCLIST always wins.
see stage seven upcoming Tour of California.
good reply, judge nick.
Sorry, but I think it is. For example, you’d very hard-pressed to find any professional cyclist riding so toe-down, even aboard their TT bike.
And even if I did, it’d probably have to be some relative unknown. Right, roadhouse?
Notice that his crank is well past the point of maximum leg extension…
There are reams of evidence that a saddle that is too high (or too low, but too high is worse) reduces gross efficiency, increases metabolic strain, etc., during submaximal exercise. Morever, it has been directly shown that a saddle that is too high impairs short-term power output.
Thanks for your very knowledgeable input. Please don’t construe me to be arguing with you.
But let me ask this: “too high” means what? His knee angle is what, 158? Does the evidence from the studies show that 158 is “too high”?
Do the studies that show a decrease in power output from being “too high” define this by knee angle, ankle angle, or a combination of the two?
None of the above, really. That is, the scientific literature has generally relied upon measures other than joint angles, e.g., trochanteric height, inseam length.
With that said, optimal saddle height based upon such measures typically results in a knee angle comparable to JudgeNick’s, but a much less extreme ankle angle.
I’m asking because I think his ankle angle puts his knee angle in the good range…and I’m wondering if the ankle angle has been shown by itself to be something that ‘reduces gross efficiency, increases metabolic strain’. This because my assumption is that that info was related to knee angle.
Your assumption is incorrect.
Sorry, but I think it is. For example, you’d very hard-pressed to find any professional cyclist riding so toe-down, even aboard their TT bike.
And even if I did, it’d probably have to be some relative unknown. Right, roadhouse?
Notice that his crank is well past the point of maximum leg extension…
what are you saying Doc C.? I’ve witnessed Big Lance set fire to the road with his toe pointed down in all positions. Don’t make me youtube you.
My knee angle is more like 148, not 158:
http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d156/Triathlon-Lawyer/kneeangle.jpg
That’s good. However, you saddle is still too high.
what are you saying Doc C.?
I’m saying that the pic you posted neither supports nor refutes your claim.
what are you saying Doc C.?
I’m saying that the pic you posted neither supports nor refutes your claim.
how could it, I didn’t post a pic.
roadhouse 1/ Doc. negative 0 
I just say do what feels right, that’s all.
upon further inspection of the video, i do believe that Doc. C. might be right as I am witnessing you wanting to hip rock a slight bit, almost as if you’re trying to negate it by tightening your gut or something.
let me check with Lance and see what he has to say, i’ll be right back.
It’s kindof annoying when you try to talk about a topic, and only one person actually responds to it. To be honest, your ankle angle theory is interesting on its own merit, but it’s lame that the thread has been hijacked. Other people are probably interested in the same thing, but they’re less likely to find any useful information when the thread gets derailed.
I’ll make you a deal. If you post a thread about ankle angle, I promise not to hijack it with a turtling discussion. Sound fair?
It’s kindof annoying when you try to talk about a topic, and only one person actually responds to it.
Welcome to the internet.
It’s kindof annoying when you try to talk about a topic, and only one person actually responds to it.
It’s ST, get over it.
BTW, your grammar sucks…
It’s kindof annoying when you try to talk about a topic, and only one person actually responds to it. To be honest, your ankle angle theory is interesting on its own merit, but it’s lame that the thread has been hijacked. Other people are probably interested in the same thing, but they’re less likely to find any useful information when the thread gets derailed.
I’ll make you a deal. If you post a thread about ankle angle, I promise not to hijack it with a turtling discussion. Sound fair?
Around 18 months ago, I tried turtling. Then I tried lowering my saddle and moving it back to 5 cm behind the BB. This allowed me to produce more power, and it lowered my head.
Sure you want to know if you are turtling, but ultimately we are assuming you want to go faster. If you want to turtle in a slow position, then keep your saddle where it is. If you want to turtle in a faster position, then move your saddle.
We’re just trying to help you. Maybe its because we realize turtling doesn’t really matter all that much until you are very, very, very close to your ideal position to begin with. Right now you are not in your ideal position, not even very close IMO. So work on your position, then turtle once you get there.
Fair enoug, Flanagan. Thanks for the explanation. I appreciate your opinion.
This video properly demonstrates the most efficient way to turtle:
That pic is useless. His foot is well past the bottom of the pedal stroke, so it stands to reason his toe would be up. Here’s a pic at a more appropriate point in the rotation:
Or here:
Or:
Hmm…sensing a pattern here.
kinda almost totally unrelated but a cool vid nonetheless and you can see some toe down action if you look closely.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dEc03Qg_yu4
still hunting down Lance in Kona with those strings all over him, flying down the queen k. almost as if that vid has been removed altogether.