Suzy is a 40 yo woman BOP
tells her gyno that she is uninterested is sex lately, gyno prescribes a testoterone patch.
one month later suzy competes in a local sprint now she is MOP
is she doping?
How about Jim? he complains of the same thing, low energy, doc tests his testo levels they are low Doc prescribes patch.
besides his improved performance with suzy he is a lttle faster in the local sprint. Is he doping?
It depends on the rules of competition and if the given event is affiliated with a governing body that has an anti-doping policy.
I would suggest in this case they are not willfully using the drugs you describe for the express purpose of improvng their athletic performance. You point out a valid medical indication for these drugs. I would suggest that is the predominant difference.
It’s a trick question right??? YES
not at all. my understanding is that neither of them would get a TUE since they are not competing at an elite level and these are folks who are going to CVS not mexico
my understanding is that neither of them would get a TUE since they are not competing at an elite level and these are folks who are going to CVS not mexico \
What difference does it make where you get your drugs?? ANyone can walk into a longevity clinic and get anything they want prescribed, does not make it legal or moral in racing. Topping off the tanks just because you are old, or have some lack in some hormone is not legal…Granted it is never going to be tested, and people just ignore this, but it is still wrong…Read Dans latest article. He talks about some people that do exactly that, and I know the guy. He holds a world record still, and he takes testerone. He is 60+ and has a deficency, but will not race because he knows he will be breaking the rules morally…He has asked for a ruling for the governing agencies, but they just don;t want to open that can of worms, so they ignore him. In the meantime he does not race…The tour, and our sport in general need a lot more like him I believe…You can justify anything you want, but it doesn’t make it right…
do you feel the same way about asthmatics taking inhalers? how about folks who take ibuprofen?
I would argue that if one has verifiable low testerone levels and the levels after supplementation are in the low normal range, one is replacing a deficiency, just like giving thyroid hormone to someone who is hypothyroid, or like giving inhaled corticosteroids to an asthmatic. I know this probably doesn’t meet the strict constraints of WADA, but for a small, but significant number of us old dudes (I’m not one) this is a very real problem, as is growth hormone deficiency. I know that these anti-aging clinics are dispensing both at an alarming rate, however. I don’t thing they are testing them all for deficiency, either.
Those two drugs are legal,(inhalers with exceptions) as is caffene, asprin, ephiderine, ect… but I feel that EPO, or the clear, or any other designer steroids, should disqualify you from competing…You can train, but racing against others doped is just not right…IF I had to chose about my health and taking these drugs, I would of course take the drugs, I just wouldn’t race…But that’s just me… I would just go to the bowling alley more often for my competitive fix…
Now if they(governing bodies) grow some balls, and make a ruling on the legality and morality of taking NEEDED drugs, and they say it is ok, and they have set parameters, then I would say go for it. They of course will never actually test anyone, but they will have at least given guidlines as to what is acceptable. Right now it is not acceptable to dope with illegal drugs, so Suzy is doping…
I was talking to a friend recently, and he was talking to a coach(mostly gym people and some MOP, BOP triathletes), and he was shocked that all this guys athletes were taking growth hormone. Many of them were at Lake Placid last week. This coach treats all these drugs like vitamins, and there is a longevitity clinic across the street from the gym that doles the stuff out, just for asking…The stuff works, andm most the people are just ignorant of what they are taking. I mean if Sheffield and Bonds are confused on supplements, imagine people that have no idea, and don’t do sports for a living… I believe it is criminal what he is doing, but probably not literally, but definately morally. He gets great results out of his athletes, and they love him…I’m sure this story can be reproduced in every city in the country now too…I just find it all sad…
I would argue that if one has verifiable low testerone levels and the levels after supplementation are in the low normal range, one is replacing a deficiency, just like giving thyroid hormone to someone who is hypothyroid, or like giving inhaled corticosteroids to an asthmatic. I know this probably doesn’t meet the strict constraints of WADA, but for a small, but significant number of us old dudes\
You are right, now it doesnt meet the guidlines, if they change it, and set limits for certain ages, then Ok…Look at it this way, if our kids aren’t good athletes, we don’t dope them up so that they can compete with the fast kids. SO why should we dope our old people so they can compete. Athletics is a sorting out in nature, starting when you are a kid, to when you are old and grey… Is that where you want sports to go, give everyone the same chemicals, regardless if they produce then naturally or not?? You can make sports non competitive and that will solve the problem, but my generation still likes to compete mano a mano with people. I don’t want to see the hard work and talent evened out with a needle, but that’s just me…
The important question is whether the patch worked… for Suzy’s original problem that is.
not to be obtuse
but again it is my understanding that they arent giving out TUE’s for inhalers to non elite athletes so if I understand your point correctly then those folks shouldnt race either.
and if one takes your natural selection argument to its natural conclusion then there shouldnt be any TUES at all, becaseu hasnt nature weeded out the asthmatic already and they can only compete with the help of a “needle” or in this cae an inhaler
I think this situation also points out, at least to me, the fact that tri’s are a participatory event instead of a race for 99% of the athletes and that age group awards are an artifical distinction anyhow
if so then testoterone is truly a performance enhancing drug
.
but again it is my understanding that they arent giving out TUE’s for inhalers to non elite athletes so if I understand your point correctly then those folks shouldnt race either.\
That is not what I said . I said the doping guidlines give TUEs for inhalers, so what’s good for the pros, is good for the AG’ers, And as I said, they just don’t want to deal with this situation right now, it is a big can of worms… Your friend should be able to get a TUE, so it is not her fault. The orginization is screwed up. The example I used before is different because it is testerone, and that is not legal under any circumstances. So morally I don’t have a problem with her inhaler. But once again, this is a thought game here, nothing is going to be done either way…
And I did not say there shouldn’t be TUE’s for some drugs… There are drugs that do nothing for a healthy person, but can help a large % of the population that have certain ailments, like Asthma…The governing bodies have made that decision that this is an exception, there are a couple more, but nothing close to steroids, or EPO…That is what we do as a civilization, we make rules, laws and guidelines…I’ve seen nothing that allows AG’ers to dope themselves silly, while pros can’t even take cold medications before a race. Of course if they have a problem and need the drugs,( Lance) then they take them, get better, and then return when they can. My arguement of not doping kids and old people, incorporates those exceptions, those are the current rules, and I generally believe in rules…
There really is no right or wrong answer here, it is a very difficult situation. There is a good arguement on both sides, And I hope I’ve made my position clear to you now…I just wish the powers to be would deal with it so that we wouldn’t have to ask these questions. Kind of lile arguing about abortion, good arguements on both sides, used to be illegal, is legal now, but who knows what the future holds…
actually I beleive that inhaled albuterol will give a beneficial effect to a person without asthma thus the need for the TUE
but to be clear is it true that the governing bodies are giving TUEs to non elites for inhalers?
I have no studies, not sure if there are any, but I was told by a very smart sports doctor, that an inhaler will not expand 100% open lungs. If there is any constriction, it will open them up, but will not over expand your normal volume. Perhaps you have different information??? Could be a placebo effect I suppose, but that can be the case with anything that really doesn’t work…
I thought I was clear about the AG’ers and TUE’s. As far as I know, they do not require, or issue them at this time. We are morally bound to the drug code, but since there is no enforcement or testing, it is up to the individual to honor their own values.
I was tested as an AG runner. I told you of my marathon story earlier, I was not a pro runner, but got swept up in the random testing because of my placing. I imagine if I tested positive that day, there would have been some repercusions. COmpletely caught me off guard that day, took me 2 hours to work up a piss, and I did a quick mental inventory of any over the counter cold remedies, how many cups of coffee, or anything that could be on that list… Luckily I was fine, but I easily could have missed some silly over the counter drug back in the early days…It happened to lots of people back then, until we got that you have to think about every little thing you put in your body. I don’t know if it is urban legand or not, but we all heard of the poppyseed bagel caper.
I cannot make a judgement without pics of Suzy. Pics of Jim, or whatever the hell his name is, are not necessary. Thank you in advance.
I think the difference is between “Performance Enhancing” and “Performance Enabling”. Most PED’s are supposed to help the sick, not aid the superior.
BUT, in Suzy and Jim’s cases they should be tarred, feathered and run out of town. After all, no triathlete is uninterested in sex right? RIGHT!?!??!
I guess we’ll agree to disagree.
I think the difference is that one is replacing a loss of a normal hormone, the loss of which is a true illness state and usually caused by an underlying condition and the other is the dishonest use of the same things to gain an unfair advantage.
I may have this all incorrect but according to the World Anti-Doping Standards (which appears to be what USATriathlon adheres to) it’s only considered doping if the banned substance can be naturally produced in the body and only when that substance is above what is considered normal production. So if Suzy and Jim (or whatever his name is) actually do have low testosterone and are getting medical attention for it then the testosterone patch would simply get them back into the normal range. In which case by the letter of the law they aren’t doping.
I tried to cut and paste the actual wording but am having computer issues. If you want to check it out for yourself it’s on page 2 (second paragraph) of this document:
http://dps.usta.com/usta_master/usta/doc/content/doc_437_30.pdf
I wanted to check out the rules since I’m pretty sure I’m going to get some really strange looks when I pop open my prescription bottle in T2 of an upcoming ironman and pop some pills. Figured it’d be best to know the rules up front (and in all fairness, if I don’t take it I die so there really aren’t too many alternatives. but then again, given that I’ll be on the bike for something like 9 hours I don’t think anyone’s going to be too worried about my performance enhancing regimen.)
I would hope that rather than just prescribing her some testosterone, the GYN would do some bloodwork or labwork to find out if her testosterone levels really were low. And if they were abnormally low I don’t see how raising them to a normal level would be a violation of sporting ethics.
According to some lab paperwork I have, normal testosterone levels for women are 14-76 ng/dl (I have no idea what kind of unit that is). for men - 241-827. surprising what a big difference!
interestingly, i had my testosterone tested recently, and it was below normal (i’m a girl). so… i guess I am Suzy. What should I do… continue to feel abnormally sluggish, shitty, and hormonally ‘unbalanced’ just so I can satisfy some dudes on an internet forum? From a medical perspective, I think most doctors would say that if this is a chronic issue, it should be addressed.
Also, I had a transfusion of my own blood as well as someone else’s. it was back in 2000. and now you know how i got 4th place overall in the 2006 Rookie Triathlon.