This is officially the worst titled thread in the history of the world.
In a group ride with unequal pace participants, is it okay to stop, say every 5 miles to wait for the slower participants on the bike; or would it be better to turn around and ‘just spin’ to meet them then turn around again. Same quesiton on a group run. Most of my group runs are trail runs so its hard to stick together at a conversational distance. I’ve sort of got this group assembled and we’re all pretty fast but we’re good at different distances. After about 15 miles a few drop off and a couple continue ahead stopping at each intersection (I live in the middle of nowhere). The faster guys get a rest of a few minutes, then when the slower guys catch up the faster want to take off within a minute or two giving the slower guys no recovery time. So, is it okay to take a rest for a few minutes (if so how long is too long) or is it better to keep going at a reduced effort? Is it harmful to stop and rest?
Have the slower guys sit in more and take shorter pulls. If the slow guys are unable to sit in the draft of the fast guys, it is time to split into 2 groups. We usually end up regrouping at the top of hills, it is then important to give the slow guys a few minutes to recover. If there is a small town a few miles up, the pace sometimes gets cranked up with the idea that we will regroup in town.
Of course it’s bad.
The slow people go too fast, and the fast people go too slow.
If you train with a group that is not your fitness level, you compromise your workout.
The best athletes train alone or with one/two training partners that are their speed.
Ideally, the ride would be broken up into smaller groups with more equal ability. For “regroup” points on a group ride, it’s good to put them just after the top of a climb, and agree on a set rest interval that starts when the LAST person gets there. Or, just make it clear that these points are to regroup ONLY, and are meant to keep the group more together and not leave anyone to get lost, NOT to rest.
For a run, what you might do is have an out-and-back route, where you agree to turn around at a specific time, and then every one runs their pace, and if the faster runners catch the slower ones on the way back that’s bad. Or could do two loops of different distance such that you’d all finish the loop at about the same time. Or do a bigger loop where you pair off, one faster runner with a slower runner (essentially two-person teams). The faster runners do the loop clockwise, and the slower counterclockwise. The team-mates tag0off when they meet, and then turn around and head back the way they came, then trying to finish at the same time.
Running - agree on a place to meet after.
Riding - agree on a couple places to meet during.
Swimming…if you are in open water - you wait.
Don’t turn around and just spin, hammer back to the very last person in your group. Tell them to go on ahead and turn around after 2 minutes. TT back up to them making up the 2 minutes, once you’ve rolled past and have a big enough gap, turn around and repeat. You can mix in 1 legged drills, 53x11t work, 39x18t work, etc. There are plenty of opportunities to make your ride tougher.
Crushing them on some fast stretch or up some climb and waiting at the top only helps your ego.
steady state work should be just that: STEADY
&
intervals are just that: Intervals of extra-effort followed by rest.
Find a workout that suits your group.
-SD
Dave, that makes for some guys who wont ever want to ride with you again. What would you think if some guy kept riding one leg circles around you?
What would I think? It happens to me all the time! I’ve spent 4 hours glued to the back of *some fast guy’s *wheel, never taking a pull. I’ve been spit out the back of school team “fartlek” workouts dozens of times. Joined the last 5km of *runners *15km runs only to get dropped in 1km. Lost the motor in group motorpaced workouts taking everyone off the back. Stopped half way up Mt. Lemon and waited for the summited group to return only to lose them on the descent.
There are no doubts in my mind that I fail to measure up to those better than I.
-SD
Drafting is one thing…if Frankie was to motor away, loop, let you pass…and TT back to you, then pass you motor away and do another loop - that I would think would get really old really fast.
If the ride is billed as a “no one gets dropped ride” then no. If it is then yes. We have a group ride in Woostock, NY every Thursday which has been billed as a “no drop” ride. We get former Cat-1 dudes along with people who have a tough time keeping up at 15mph for 25 miles. Sometimes it breaks into two seperate groups an a & b, which is good. I think the absolute worse thing we can do for newcomers, regardless if they are great atheltes in other sports and recently took up triathlon/cycling or not-so-great athletes who took up the sport to lose weight/get healthy is to bill the ride as “no one gets dropped” then get really annoyed with the slow-pokes. It kills their confidence. Not all are super-fast.
I have an especially fond memeory during a group “no one gets dropped ride” of some total loser (fast dude who does a 22 minute 10 mile TT and a 5 hour IM bike split who is probably the biggest ego-monger I have ever met). He always complains about the slow-pokes even though the group organizer tells everyone that the ride is “no on gets dropped”. This dude will tell you about himself until the cows come home. Well, during one ride when he complained when we we stopped waiting for the slow-pokes another guy says to him “let take off and tt to the next stop, around 5 miles”. Little did the scum-bag know the guy who said this to him was a former pro-mtb racer who is incredibly strong. They took off and the loser got dropped after about 1/2 mile, lost by minutes.
When we all gathered and heard the story someone said to the scum-bag, “oh well, now you know how it feels to be slow and get dropped”. The scum-bag looked around and said, I guess so. Gave us all that fuzzy-warm feeling in your stomach.
We have had a few guys saying no one gets drooped on the ride and then he promptly warms up going up the hill at 356 mph…and of course all of us get dropped and never see fearless leader again. I usually do rides with one getting dropped and am true to my word. But if I don’t announce it then I let people know they will get droppe.
I’ve had that exact thing happen at the track. The fast guys lapping me (wannabe group) over and over.
I fail to see how getting beat up by those better than you is somehow demoralizing.
The very nature of competing sets us up for such occurrances, no?
Agreed. I ride with a guy that does this on long climbs all the time. He has the best intentions in the world and I respect his wanting to get a good workout, but I’d rather ride alone.
For my riding group, I believe it depends… If it is a beginner, or a person who is normally a little slower, it is important to wait, or soft pedal as someone helps bring the person back to the group. This happens in fast group, but is mandatory in the no-drop group.
If it is a person who is normally in fast group, and they are having a bad day, it is important to whip up the pace and drive our friend into the ground. I think that it is a key part of bonding as a group… to see you normally fast friend in a completely disheveled state, helmet crooked, salt encrusted, with foaming spittle on their face. This is when we test the limits of their love. I believe we are never closer as a group as when we are putting a hurt on the weakest!
; )
Mark
Depends on how many hot chicks are in the group. 
Dave G,
You described your ride as a group ride, not a group training ride or a training ride or a no one gets dropped ride. I imagine as the group travels along its route there are times when it speeds up for some distance and likewise there are times when it slows down slightly for a distance before returning to the “cruising” speed.
I belong to a cycling club that also has group rides. Many of the rides tend to be rather fast and it is not uncommon for people to get spit out the back. It takes a certain kind (special breed?) of individual to accept this fate and keep coming back ride after ride believing that if each time they hang on a little further that they are improving and becoming better (faster/stronger) cyclists.
The real trick is to convince the stronger riders in the group, that the best workout comes from dropping back and working to bring those dropped riders back to the group rather than continuing to ride at the front.
When those strong riders drop back to pick up the straggler, the group can slow down just a little to help get the group back together.
This tactic goes a long way to communicate to those weaker riders that their participation in the group ride is desired and the group is interested in helping them improve over and above the group ride just being an opportunity to get better if they can hang on or stick out returning each ride only to get spit out the back over and over.
In many of our group rides, one or more of the stronger riders sit near the back to keep an eye on those who are struggling to hang on. They will offer advice to help a tired cyclist recover as well as jump in where it apppears their strength is required to help those behind recover.
We also have rides where we do stop periodically at agreed locations to let the group reform. When our group gets really large, we will take advantage of steep hills to hammer and intentionally break the group up into two smaller groups to make it easier to share the road with traffic.
Another strategy is to slow the group down for x number of minutes to let the exhausted or very tired riders catch their breath and then slowly bring the group’s speed back up to where it was before.
Bear in mind that a group ride is a bit like a fartlek. Hard pace followed by easier pace followed by hard pace again followed by easier pace on and on. Remember also that at stop signs and traffic lights your group slows or stops. How is this any different from slowing or stopping to get the group back together? Accepting this and trying to make it work for your group will build community in your group and a sense among those in the group that they all belong.
You should try to keep from being a group known to only stop at green lights because you don’t want to run into group/club members who are running the red light at that same intersection.
FWIW.
I am blessed with the fact that on the bike I am able to “out ride” most of the folks in my area. This has become an issue as some folks feel guilty for “sucking my wheel all day” and honestly I dont mind at all and like to have someone there if I need a break. Others say sorry over and over for “slowing me down” (most often when they are not). There are a few folks I ride circles around - Mjuric is one of them and I know is pisses him off a bit as it would me if Bjorn was to show up and ask me to ride - then fuck with me.
If it is the Sat AM hammer fest - sure, wait to hear an HRM at the top and sprint to hurt the guy. What I like to do is motor off the front and claim to have “won the stop ahead sprint” - this however if played time after time will cause a bit of ill will with the wrong croud.
Sorry to have been absent for so long. I was more asking for the muscular / cardiovascular answer, not the ethical answer. I do a ton of training alone so when people want to come with I’m thrilled (live in a smallish town). We wait every few miles so that its more fun for everyone (all 4-6 of us). I remember living in a big city and working my ass off to hang on someones wheel only to get dropped on a hill. They say that we don’t even slow down (which we all know is exagerated, we slow down less than 10% on the hills 
). The problem is Kevin and I push very hard at the tops of hills trying to out-do eachother (as the Cobra Kai said, “no mercy”.)
“When those strong riders drop back to pick up the straggler, the group can slow down just a little to help get the group back together.”
This is typically what we do in the group rides with our club. To help keep things together we also:
- Have the stronger riders take longer or most of the pulls
- Have the less fit riders, take short pulls or just sit in.
- Split into groups at the start that have a better chance of staying together.
- If someone is dropped and they are absolutly OK with it, then we will go on
5.Stop as a group if someone has a mechanical or a flat to make sure they are OK. Two guys working on the bike can get a flat changed very quickly.