I have been having some discussion with training partners about riding steep. We all ride steep on our tri bikes, however, a bunch of us also have road bikes which we ride pretty slack. Myself, I ride the tri bike hard or long Wed/Sat/Sun and the rest of the time I am commuting sitting up on a road bike with powercranks.
For one, I don’t find riding a steep tri bike any fun unless I am going hard…those bikes just are not comfortable going easy. Secondly, when I ride my tri bike too much, my knees get tight and as do the hips. I’m also not turning as nice a “circle” on a tri bike as on a road bike. More of a stomping action.
I’ve heard a few old school types saying that riding with the knees forward of the pedal axle in the 3 o’clock position can be hard on the patella, and while I concur that the tri position rotates the entire system over, so that now although you are pushing back the knee is over the axle at ~ 4 O’clock (not sure if I explained this so well)…however in practice it really does not seem to work this way.
Anyway, for long term health of the joints is riding steep all the time really an good idea, or should we be mixing it up? I realize this statement alone might get me banished from ST (a guy who claims that riding slack some times may actually be a good thing…). It might be good to hear some feedback from dudes who have ridden steep 100% of the time for years on end, as well as from some docs and physio types.
I’m looking at long term self preservation here…yes, I agree that I ride faster steep, but I don’t want to pay a long term price for that speed…I can selectively choose times of year when I really need to get specific and ride steep for speed…the rest of the time, I can just ride laid back and build base
For one, I don’t find riding a steep tri bike any fun unless I am going hard…those bikes just are not comfortable going easy. Secondly, when I ride my tri bike too much, my knees get tight and as do the hips. I’m also not turning as nice a “circle” on a tri bike as on a road bike. More of a stomping action.
How steep is you tri position?
If you tend to stomp while on the tri bike, you may do better with the Rotorcrank. It should help relieve some of the stress on the knees.
Bike is set up as slack as it will go at 78, however, I don’t like an saddle in front of my boys when riding aero, so my effective position is more like 82. I need to actually be at more like 76-77 to pedal a smoother circle. Its not like I am pedalling squares, its just not as “pretty” as when in a conventional road postion.
I also have a longish femur and big feet for my height, which I believe would make it more natural to ride a bit more slack.
I remember reading an article in which Peter Reid said that each week he rode his road bike, fixed-gear, and tri-bike. Good enough endorsement for mixing it up for me.
.
I only ride my tri bike “in season” (say late April thru mid Oct), the rest of the year it hangs on the wall in the garage. And even in season, I still mix it up a bit by riding the roadie (or the mtb on the trainer, or even an actual mtb) on occasion.
I don’t have any knee issues from my tri bike, pretty much the only thing that seems to act up a bit is my neck and upper back muscles, but by this time of year I’ve got them pretty well beaten into submission.
I also get some “toight”-ness in the hips from the tri position, but stretching seems to help alleviate that.
How can yer knees be getting sore? You have a circus bike and kiddie cranks. hahaha!!!
I’ve wondered the same thing. I’ll echo what ML said.
My road bike is set up with a zero offset seatpost (about 73.5 degrees?), and that’s what I ride for bulk of my training. My tri bike is set up at 79 degrees and ride it once a week during racing season, more frequently as it gets closer to my A races. I haven’t experienced any discomfort or pain with my legs/knees but I believe it’s because I’ve added a lot more focus on improving flexibility this year with yoga.
It does not seem to be any issue when my tri bike hours are low…its just when I get closer to A races and doing three days a week on the tri bike that I notice things a bit more out of whack than normal…and it can’t be the hours…I’ve done 40+ hour weeks on bike touring trips on a conventional road geometry touring bike with zero joint issues doing hours upon hours of big mountain climbing.
some off my head thoughts (I’ll think about it more seriously later):
tri bikes are designed primarily for two things - racing triathlons or training solo at near race speeds in the aero position. Why would anybody consider using them for anything else? I agree - sitting up riding on a tri bike is not an effecient way to cycle. That’s why other than for the two reasons mentioned, I always ride my road bike.
From a biomechanical point of view, you are using your quads more than your hamstrings compared to a road bike so it is theoretically more possible to develop patella problems since the patella is the distal attachment of the quad muscle group. I can’t see this effecting your hips or knees assuming seat height, cleats, etc is correct. There is some evidence of hip osteoporosis in long time cyclists, but this shouldn’t effect you because of all the running cross training that you do.
You are definately putting more pressure on your crotch and more strain on your cervical spine holding it in more extension when riding aggressive in the aero position. These two areas were always my biggest issues on long rides on my tri bike.
Dev,
I have not had any issues after six years of riding steep. Before this year I rode about 95 percent of the time on the tri bike between 3-5 centimenters in front of the bb. This year that has changed because 1) I bought a Davo road bike from Ves and it is really fun to ride 2) I am now riding at about 22cm of drop and my neck just can’t take endless hours of that. If anyone should have knee issues riding steep it ought to be me since I combine the long drop with 190mm crankarms, but it has never been an issue.
I now do my long and easy rides on the Davo and split the time up about 50/50. The PCs go on the tri bike and regular crankarms on the Davo.
Chad
You are definately putting more pressure on your crotch and more strain on your cervical spine holding it in more extension when riding aggressive in the aero position. These two areas were always my biggest issues on long rides on my tri bike.
If you are really concerned about those issues, you can give yourself a break and do a long ride on a recumbent. You can agle the seat any way that you want from a more open position (most aero) to a more closed position to simulate the hip angle of a road or tri bike.
You can also use powercranks, rotocranks, or whatever you use on your road or tri bike.
The main difference is that you don’t have to lift the leg against gravity on the upstroke
Contrary to popular belief, you can get some very lightweight recumbents that will climb well on hill.
I may be a bigger slacker than many, but my bike’s not.
My B2 comes with a standard 76 deg angle (I believe, IIRC), but I have an Arione Tri saddle jammed as far forward on the rails as it’ll go, and then I ride the nose of that mosta the time anyway.
(I only scoot back to climb, or power over rollers, otherwise I’m pretty forward)
So the de facto angle I’m riding at hasta be in the upper 70’s I’d imagine.
I have a 12.5 cm drop (sounds much cooler and “more” than saying 5 inches
The nice thing about my setup is, when I’m climbing it’s not all that different from the hoods position on my road bike, so I don’t lose a thing in that department.
(hooray for me, I actually just set a new hillclimb TT lifetime PB earlier this afternoon, on my tri bike)
If yer knees are hurting you on the bike, it could be a saddle height issue.
(dare I say it? your seat may be too ____ )
If it’s just one knee, and not the other, could be a cleat alignment issue (sometimes they do slide outta whack over time).
Yeah…go get a recumbent bike…Just kidding what a stupid post that was. No, I do agree with the last post about seat height. I think your issue or inquiry relates to seat height and overall bike fit. I was fit by a professional fitter. I used to have knee problems with a road bike I used to have. I must say that I was not professionally fitted for the road bike that I used to have. So…I tossed the road bike when I bought an expensive tri bike. The only times that my knee ever hurts is when my quads are doing all the work. However, when I allow my hamstrings to provide positive contribution to (my circle) I seem to have power and my knees feel great.
Finally, if I ever do any leisure riding I will probably get me a road bike. Also, I need one because I am thinking about doing some road racing. So, I do all my training on my tri bike. Did 40 miles today and will probably ride around 60 on Thurs. My legs have never felt stronger. Plus…I have only been doing tris a year and have improved my bike splits from the bottom to the top. I am catching my competitors very quickly. The people that have beat me this year will likely lose to me next year. I believe that training on my tri bike gives me an advantage to people who don’t. I can handle well and build my power around my bike. I do ride at a 78 degree angle and at the front end of the saddle. I do everything on my tri bike. When it rains I ride on my trainer. Even when I do not feel like going outside, I put it on the trainer.
I don’t think there is anything wrong with riding your road bike. But if you are doing threshold workouts, you might want to use your tri bike. Also, climbing on a road bike and tri bike can be a little different. Finally, I don’t think the tri bike causes the problems you were mentioning. I think it is all about the fit.
3 Seasons ago, I moved a couple of degree’s fwd, ending up in the range of 80-82 on my cervelo. I also upped my mileage and did some BG riding. In my big weeks I got acute patella soreness (tendonitis I suppose).
1 Season ago, I switched to a smaller bike (really to fix my cockpit). I also moved back a bit to 78ish degrees. I have not gotten any of the same knee issues that I was getting by riding steeper. At first it took some adjusting, but, I am riding as fast or faster than I was 3 seasons ago and without the knee aggravation.
I have not experienced hip problems riding steep. Caveat - I do get problems if I have my seat too low riding steep.
Personally, I believe all hard workouts, race pace workouts and the majority of endurance riding should be done on your race bike. Moreso within 4 months of a key race. That leaves the easy rides for road, cross or mtn.
The Boys - I am usually OK in the crotch department riding at or above IM pace. I quite often sit up if I am riding easier to save the pain for another day.
Hey guys, my seat is certain not too high, and I certainly incorporate all my muscles including hamstrings and hip flexors into the entire pedal stroke. Like I said, I cannot ride my tri bike any slacker than 82. Seat is slammed all the way back and since I ride the nose when I get aero, I am stuck riding that steep…and please don’t tell me to ride in the middle of the saddle, because it just does not end up happening that way. As soon as I get aero, my boys don’t want anything in the front. Anyway, these issues did not exist when I had bikes where I could actually have the nose of the saddle a cm to two behind the BB. With my current bike, it will only slide back to the nose over BB.
Anyway, I am more interested in hearing about what some who ride exclusively aero are seeing. Not everyone has 2 bikes. What do the people who ride steep all the time end up feeling in various body parts over time. For examples, I do not believe that any of the RAAM guys ride steep (or very few do). They are the exteme lab rats on what positions work over time…albeit at much lower power outputs.
I know this is ST, but for long term joint health, is too much steep not good?
Here’s some anectdotal observations. However, this has more to do with back problems as they related to riding a tri bike. Here’s what I have found: When you ride on the aero-bars a lot, you dis-engage your key deep core muscles. It’s just a natural reaction of the body because you have now built a strong bridge and they don’t need to work as hard or at all to support your mid section. However, when you ride a road bike and you are fit to that bike properly, there should not be a great deal of weight on your arms/hands - you are more cantilevered with just a bit of support - and you must engage either conciously or subconciously the deep core muscles more when riding in a traditional road position.
Of course this can be countered by doing a regular core strengthening routine.
It’s a just a guess on my part, but I believe that this may have been a contributing factor to my back problems. Road forward and aero for years and did all this before the current information about core strength and it’s importance was in vogue.
the old school view of knee over pedal axle has as its aim to ensure your knee is not in shear. that works in principal more or less well if you’re on a road bike, set up as you would be on a road bike. why can’t you ride steep on your road bike? among other things, you’ll have all that upper body weight supported muscularly, by your arms, and you can’t do that.
on your tri bike, you displace your weight on the saddle and on the aero bars, instead of mostly on the saddle. this allows you to shift your weight forward, that is, shift your body forward. the aspect of your tibia is no longer close to vertical. it is now at a much greater angle, pointing “backward” if you will. if your tibia was to maintain its vertical aspect in spite of your forward position, then your knee would be in shear. but it’s not, you don’t have to worry about that.
this is elementary. furthermore, and the good road riders ought to know this, because they do ride in the forward position. when riding very fast on the flats is a premium, road riders slide far forward on their saddles – they ride “on the rivet” – and they can throw KOPS right out the window when they’re in this position. if you slap an aero bike with aerobars underneath the rider, he then can ride this way more comfortably. in either case, you can throw KOPS out the window once you allow a rider to displace his weight both on his saddle and on his elbows.
my question: on which of your bikes do you have your powercranks mounted?
I’ve found since I built up and switched to riding and racing on a softride that has relieved a lot of stress on my legs. I’m not sure if this was because I could get my position perfectly dialed in or because of the beam effect.
Btw combining a ISM saddle with the softride beam and in the areo position it is the most comfortable bike (any style) that I have ridden. I’ve done 90+ mile rides where I spend less than 2 mins on the hoods with zero comfort issues!
Slowman…yes, we are talking exactly the same language…on traditional road bike, you can put your knee in “sheer” if you get too far forward when pushing “down”. On tri bike, you don’t because the entire frame of reference is rotated. I think my point is that because I am riding even steeper than the amount of degrees that my “frame is rotated” I am potentially back to putting some “sheer” force on the knee…all I need is to get ~10-15mm back so that I am riding at 80 degrees or so pushing slightly back and I will be fine.
This issue has not come up riding steep, until I have been on my current bike that does not allow me to get any further back with the saddle I have. The options now include finding a saddle with long enough rails that is “plush enough up front” that I can slide the seat back and still have a nice ride and not put sheer force on my knee and have minimal crotch discomfort. Or I can get the QR seat shuttle and slide my San Marco “Kuota” saddle back. Or I can just get a new bike that is designed at 76 degrees that would put me at 80 degrees riding the nose. I also have a profile saddle that has very minimal rail real estate up front that I would like to use, but this saddle just puts me way too steep.
For the record, my powercranks are on my Kestrel 200SC road bike. On that bike I am riding at around 75-76 (depending on where I am sitting on the saddle) with a straight up seatpost with no setback. My body loves this position.
Again, keep in mind that I am only 5’6.5" but I have almost a size 10 foot and relatively long femur, so I think I would naturally be better aligned with respect to “knee sheer” a few degrees back of what some other tri geeks might want to ride aero.
This morning, I did a hard 90K ride with my friends on my tri bike and then rode home, threw the tri bike in the garage, got my backpack with my work stuff, hopped on my Kestrel and rode over to work…the moment I got on my Kestrel road bike it was like I had died and gone to heaven…I was just so much more comfortable…and yes I agree that going fast is not about comfort, but I don’t want to take my body apart in the process of going fast either (and I can haul pretty fast on my Kestrel in a roadie position)…I’d’ rather be a bit slower and not injured cause the fastest injured guy who does not make it to the starting line is slower than the last place finisher!
