Is Jack Daniels killing me?

Triathlon Forum
1

I am training for a marathon in April, and want to qualify for Boston. I ran a marathon 2 years ago, and my maximum mileage week was 34(23 of that was a long run). I need to run a 3:30(I am 45).

I have been following the Jack Daniels training program, and I really like it. My HR has dropped at any given speed for my 4-8 mile runs, and I feel very fresh, despite the increase in mileage. I have always hated Threshold runs, but Jack has made me a believer, and I am ripping them off at a little less than a 7 minute mile. The problem is that my last 2 long runs have been disastrous. 4 weeks ago I did a “race pace” run(7:54) of 13 miles, and my average HR was just under 150. My max HR is 185, so my Threshold is 163-169(or so). During this race pace run, I never felt out of control, or struggling, despite the 25 degree temps and 18 mile an hour wind.

I have been doing 50 miles a week or so, and last week concluded the first 60 mile week of my life. Last Sunday we did a 19 mile run, and even though our pace was comfortable (8:40 or so) - my HR was in the high 150s, and my legs and spirit were broken by mile 15. I slowed down and finished, but I was killed mentally.

today - we were supposed to do a 20 miler(to conclude a 48 mile week for me), and unfortunately my running partner and I got into a bit of a “race” we held an 8:20 pace for the first 15 miles, and then I just crashed. We wanted to run 8:40s, so it is not like we were sprinting, but my HR was screaming into the high 150s and high 160s. My running partner, whose HR is usually about 5 beats slower than mine was a full 20 beats slower today, and he was fresh while I was crashing. I followed my normal nutrition and fluid intake for the run, but my perceived effort and HR were off the charts.

It seems like my intensity has built at a reasonable pace over the last 8 weeks, and just 6 weeks ago I ran 17 miles at an 8:40 pace with an average HR of 143. I am now going backwards and it sucks.

Swimming and Biking have been background activities, and intensity has not increased much, if at all. My running has built slowly, and with purpose.

Today I found myself not wanting to run the marathon, and to just focus on my bike(best discipline) for Memphis in May. While quitting is not a usual course of action for me, and I really thought I could run a 3:30 - I am starting to doubt myself, and wonder if I would be better off just switching my focus.

Can anyone relate to what I am experiencing? Any suggestions? I really have not changed any variables in my diet, sleep, or training that I can think of to explain the degrading quality of my long runs, but 2 of these sad efforts in a row have really busted my chops.

help?

Tim

2

Switch to Wild Turkey. The extra 21 proof helps.

3

actually I am a big fan of Crown or Cognac. both are jet fuel and I am still getting slower.

4

It sounds like you may need a break from running. Take a week of non-running and then get back into it. Better to take a break than give up. Good luck.

5

Stay the course. If all your pacing info is accurate, it sounds like you’ll be right there after a good taper. Could you maybe increase recovery prior to long runs, more sleep maybe? I got into similar patterns while training for my first IM this past summer. I found that if I could manage some extra recovery before my long days they were a lot easier to get through. I approached IM training as four separate disciplines swimming, cycling, running and recovering. Don’t quit! Even if you miss 3:30, you’ll still feel better about the whole thing than you will if you quit.

6

HR can be a faulty indicator, so keep your hr data in perspective. Caffeine, sleep, stress… all have a significant effect on hr.

I wouldn’t advise taking a week off, but it sounds like you need some rest. I think a week with 3-4 short runs would do you good. More importantly, I would also recommend doing 1 short and fast workout a week for the next 3-4 weeks. Something like 8x1:00 at 6:15^6:30 pace or 30 sec 60 sec 90 sec 3 times through at about the same pace. Running short and fast is the best things you can do for your efficiency and will go a long way to helping you feel sharp. There is a common misconception that long distance training needs to be slow and as voluminous and possible to be effective. Fast running is critical to performance at any distance. It’s no coincidence that the 2 fastest marathoners of all time are sub 26:30 10k runners, the current best marathoner is a 26:40 runner, the best non-african marathon runner was a miler until he was 23 and the list goes on.

Good luck.

7

If I were you, I’d do a full week of EASY pace - 70 to 75% of your max hr, and skip the long run this week. Keep all runs just a little shorter time-wise, but run the same frequency you normally do. If you still feel like crap after that, then repeat another week.

Don’t pull the plug until you’ve given your body the proper recovery. Never make decisions when you are at your lowest point - you won’t be happy with it at a higher point later.

8

I sure can. Same boat. Same age. People may disagree with me about this and I used to think this was wrong, but I truly believe you should run a few 16-18 mile runs on the “8.” Not 8:40 or 8:20. People worry about injury and burn out doing this, but I see this time and time again. People in our running group practicing their long runs at their projected Race Pace, for those long runs, even 20 or more.

We have about 10 people in our age group, the half who run under a 3:30, will try to hold an 8:00 for the longer 18 mile runs. And they do, and most them will run a 3:25 to 3:30. The rest of us never make it under 3:30. This is why they pay NO ATTENTION to me about heart rates and taking it easy on long runs.

There are freaks, however, even for us older guys and gals. My best friend is a freak and runs at the back with me on a 9 minute mile but he can jet off a 3:20 marathon, during race day. And he only runs about 25 miles a week. Just a freak.

9

good point. I ran a 3:43 for my first marathon with a low weekly mileage, but I was still doing track work once a week. I could probably go out and run 4:40s for 1200s on 90 seconds rest next week, I was doing them on the 4:30 with 60 seconds this fall. I just cannot seem to translate that speed into a good distance run. I ran a 1:36 half Marathon last April on about 35 miles a week training.

I ran a 41:30 10k this Fall, which is not that fast, but most calculators put my marathon time way under 3:30 - so I figured my weakest link was my mileage vs speed and VO2 Max.

While following the Daniels program has been a relief in that I have not had to think - and the notion of getting more race specific with pacing as the race approaches makes perfect sense - I am hating my results, but as a few of you point out - I might just be burnt out, and needing a short break, or easier week.

sorry for sounding like a whiner, but I have never run with such purpose in my life, and I am going backwards, which probably supports the notion that I need to back off.

10

http://i93.photobucket.com/albums/l80/dherr005/th_jack-daniels.jpg

I’m a fan of the 80 proof, when taken in the perfect quantity it should help you go faster.

Well anyway I’d advise to take a week of chill running, get in a few more swims and some good recovery all around. Not much of a different suggestion than anyone else really…

11

http://i93.photobucket.com/albums/l80/dherr005/jack-daniels.jpg
.

12

it’s OK… you over reached. Don’t compound this by not resting and making it over training. Rest and then get back into the progression slowly.

Like others said… take an easy week. Frequent short easy runs with some strides thrown in to keep things fresh. Lots of sleep. Massage. Vegetables, vitamins and minerals.

Also, stop comparing yourself to your training partner… as others have said, HR varies greatly, so you should just worry about yourself, and use pace and breathing and RPE in addition to HR. Get to know your breathing patterns for certain paces and HRs. When your HR is way off, trust your breathing… it’s usually a good indicator of the work you are doing.

Good luck! You will lose nothing by resting a bit. Really.

13

Man, don’t take an easy week now. This is the hard part of your training, it’s supposed to be hard. And when you do a 20 mile long run as part of a 48 mile week (whose bright idea was that, anyway?), it’s going to hurt badly. If you do it 20 seconds per mile too fast, it’s going to hurt REALLY badly. I think you should rest by getting a good night’s sleep or five, and stick to the plan.

14

What he said.

You just increased your weekly mileage by a lot and at the peak ran your longest runs to date…one of which you went out too fast. You wonder why your legs are dead?

Don’t take a week off. Drop your mileage and intensity. Resting does not equate inactivity.

15

you’re not saying what he said, you’re saying what all the rest of us said. muffintop is saying don’t rest, go harder, it’s supposed to hurt.

16

Bingo, Muffintop! It doesn’t sound like anything serious is going on. This is the tough part of training…going when your mind and body are saying stop. They are liars. Go. Go now. Suck it up, sweetcakes.

17

I have not been called Sweetcakes in a long time. If nothing else - this thread is worth it for that…

I agree that Jack would not have prescribed a 20 miler on a 48 mile week. I was supposed to do approx 18.5 with a bunch of threshold work sprinkled in, but I knew I was tired and did not want to try it alone - so opted for my running partners run for the day.

The advice so far has been to take a week to recoup - not stop running, but back off the mileage, and another camp says to suck it up and stick with the plan. Has anyone been in the boat I am in? My HR is off the charts, but so is my perceived effort during these runs, and I guess is makes sense that I am taking myself to a place I have not been and my body is getting a bit pissed off, and that once I taper - I will be better for the pain?

Excellent Jack Daniels pictures by the way - I needed the laugh.

I appreciate everyone trying to help me think this through

Tim

18

I’ve been in a similar position getting ready for a marathon last April where my normal long run heart rate would go up from about about 155 - which seemed comfortable for me - to 165-168 towards the longer runs, and it had me really freaked out. So I took off the HRM and just ran on percieved effort. That worked much better - I calmed down and I’m convinced my percieved effort was just higher because my wrist was telling me that I was running at a threshold pace instead of a race pace. The problem probably isn’t in your legs, its in your head.

19

I would agree with M-top that your experience on your long run is not at all surprising given distance/pace/% of weekly mileage. Now is when you should be working the hardest for an April race. I would add that you should make sure that your easy days are really, really easy. Keep reminding yourself that on those days your only goal is to get yourself ready for the other workouts during the week.

Also, I think it is not good in general to sort of follow someone’s plan, which in this case is to try to do the quality workouts/Long run without doing the associated total weekly mileage, or not minding the prescribed pacing for E runs. That will kill you…or at least keep you from maximizing your performance.

20

Thanks. On my Easy days - I am keeping HR under 140, and the runs are very boring, but I have finally learned about running the key runs well, and simply “slogging” my easy days. The one piece of Jack’s advice that I am struggling with is that on long runs - he prescribes not running more than 25% of your weekly mileage. Since my longest week will be approximately 60 miles - It is difficult for me to think that I can run a long run of 15 miles and reach my potential during a marathon. On some of the days that Jack does not call “long” - he has me doing 17-18 miles with a combination of threshold and Easy running, but I am having trouble getting my head around not doing at least a 22 miler before the race. Am I stuck in an outdated paradigm regarding the long run? Could I do just as well with shorter efforts?

I am probably over thinking this entire situation, and I need to curl up with the notion that even though I am slower now than I was 4 weeks ago - I am doing what I need to in order to take full advantage of a taper and nail it on race day.