The recent thread on the stimulus package has me wondering what is the criteria that makes something “Pork” versus “Stimulus”.
For instance it was “Pork” when a bridge was going to be built in Alaska in a rather remote area. But it’s “Stimulus” to spend money on parks in “Remote” areas.
Also it was “Pork” when a bridge was going to be built in one state, but it’s “Stimulus” when a bridge is going to be built in all 50.
So when and how does something go from “Pork” to “Stimulus”.
My opinion on the stimulus package is that it’s one massive pork party. We are discussing the “Merits” of that in the other thread, I’m more curious as to why and when it becomes “Stimulus” rather than pork in this thread.
Well, traditionally, it is pork when it is not even remotely connected to the main intent of the legislation. For example, the bill is to fund military actions in the middle east and a senator tacks a provision for $20 million to study the mating habits of wild boars in his/her own state.
Now, under this current “stimulus” bill, we have a couple hundred million going to the CDC for STD prevention. Someone please tell me how that will stimulate the economy.
This current stimulus bill is a joke. It is nothing more than a Dem wish list. We are in sorry, sorry shape for years to come. But, what the hell, let our kids worry about it.
Well, you could say the stimulus bill is a pork bill if you want, but stimulus is more like pork admitting it’s pork, whereas true pork is less upfront.
The term pork or “pork barrel” is usually referred to when an unrelated item is added to a bill with a particularly localized benefit, added for the purpose of gaining the support of a member of Congress who might not otherwise have supported it or added by a member to bring funds to his/her constituents (typically to make good on a campaign promise).
So yes, even if you want to call the stimulus a giant “pork bill” it could still have pork added to it if those additions don’t reflect the general spirit/goals of the piece of legislation. People use the term pork and spending interchangably, which is wrong. Pork is generally unrelated spending added for a particular reason, which is typically unrelated to the reason behind the passage of the particular piece of legislation.
There are certain government expenditures that are known to stimulate the economy in very effective ways; food stamps and unemployment benefits I believe top the list in terms of returns to the economy per dollar spent.
Tax cuts, especially corporate tax cuts, are near the bottom generating only 3 cents per dollar spent.
Pork is a pejorative term that is meaningless in this discussion. An expenditure either helps stimulate the economy or it doesn’t.
I only wish the House GOP were as concerned about the $350 BILLION they approved for President Bush to give to the banks with no oversight and which subsequently vanished, as they are about the $50 million for the NEA or the $200 million for the national mall.
There are certain government expenditures that are known to stimulate the economy in very effective ways; food stamps and unemployment benefits I believe top the list in terms of returns to the economy per dollar spent.
Tax cuts, especially corporate tax cuts, are near the bottom generating only 3 cents per dollar spent.
Pork is a pejorative term that is meaningless in this discussion. An expenditure either helps stimulate the economy or it doesn’t.
I only wish the House GOP were as concerned about the $350 BILLION they approved for President Bush to give to the banks with no oversight and which subsequently vanished, as they are about the $50 million for the NEA or the $200 million for the national mall.
You are so freaking predictable. Wasteful spending is okay because the GOP did it and now it is your party’s turn. Unbelievable! But but Bush…
Wasteful spending is giving $350 billion to Wall Street with no oversight and not requiring that thay put a cent of that money into loan portfolios or mortgage restructure plans. Its not wasteful to invest public monies in programs that are known to stimulate the economy at a time like this.
Can you see the difference? please tell me you can see the difference.
There are certain government expenditures that are known to stimulate the economy in very effective ways; food stamps and unemployment benefits I believe top the list in terms of returns to the economy per dollar spent.
Tax cuts, especially corporate tax cuts, are near the bottom generating only 3 cents per dollar spent.
Pork is a pejorative term that is meaningless in this discussion. An expenditure either helps stimulate the economy or it doesn’t.
I only wish the House GOP were as concerned about the $350 BILLION they approved for President Bush to give to the banks with no oversight and which subsequently vanished, as they are about the $50 million for the NEA or the $200 million for the national mall.
You are so freaking predictable. Wasteful spending is okay because the GOP did it and now it is your party’s turn. Unbelievable! But but Bush…
Yep. x2.
$142B in federal education funds
$87B Medicaid bailout
$200M to the CDC for STD prevention
$120M for “family planning,” including providing birth control for minors
$650M for digital convertor coupons
$600M for new Govt cars
$50M to the National Endowment for the Arts
$200M for repairs to the National Mall (including $21M for new sod)
$142B in federal education funds
$87B Medicaid bailout - frees up money states would have had to spend, allowing them to spend money on projects they need
$200M to the CDC for STD prevention
$120M for “family planning,” including providing birth control for minors
$650M for digital convertor coupons - the gov’t will be making money after this conversion takes place, hence the effort put into the conversion
$600M for new Govt cars - replacing fleet vehicles as they go out of service (many to natural gas vehicles)
$50M to the National Endowment for the Arts
$200M for repairs to the National Mall (including $21M for new sod) - this has been removed
Yep, that’ll stimulate the old ecomony
Again, that’s off the top of my head, do some researching before ranting, you won’t look so foolish.
$142B in federal education funds
$87B Medicaid bailout - frees up money states would have had to spend, allowing them to spend money on projects they need
$200M to the CDC for STD prevention
$120M for “family planning,” including providing birth control for minors
$650M for digital convertor coupons - the gov’t will be making many after this conversion takes place
$600M for new Govt cars - replacing fleet vehicles as they go out of service (many to natural gas vehicles)
$50M to the National Endowment for the Arts
$200M for repairs to the National Mall (including $21M for new sod) - this has been removed
Yep, that’ll stimulate the old ecomony
Again, that’s off the top of my head, do some researching before ranting, you won’t look so foolish.
I’m not familiar with how those education funds are slated to be spent, but I would tend to believe that it could be effectively argued that those would create economic stimulus as well.
$142B in federal education funds
$87B Medicaid bailout
$200M to the CDC for STD prevention
$120M for “family planning,” including providing birth control for minors
$650M for digital convertor coupons
$600M for new Govt cars
$50M to the National Endowment for the Arts
$200M for repairs to the National Mall (including $21M for new sod)
Yep, that’ll stimulate the old ecomony!
Why do you think it won’t stimulate the economy? there’s no faster way to get cash into the economy than by spending it on government programs such as medicaid and food stamps and the stimulus effects are well known and well documented.
I can understand your conservative knee jerk reaction to government spending on social programs, but right now thats what this economy needs no matter how much you hate the idea on philosphical grounds. We tried letting Wall Street reboot the economy with TARP bailouts and that was a disaster…we are $350 billion poorer and have nothign to show for it. At least with this plan we the people would get a nice shiny new National Mall instead of AIG getting big shiny bonuses or Merrill Lynch getting million dollar bathrooms.
(and if you were keeping up you’d know that the Mall repairs were cut from the bill to keep house Republicans happy and they then turned round and voted no anyway)
I will buy into what you are saying if you will document for me how the trillions we have spend on welfare since the 1960s have leds to jobs, increase net worth, improved family statistics, etc. Please show me the statistics? Show me the ROI.
The other big issue is that the Fed has already committed $1.2 Trillion, which we know in the end it will be more.
Lastly, just call this what it is, its a spending bill - a wish list. I thought the problem was housing and lack of credit flowing.
Thsi bill will not help change the macro-issues of the economy. We are too leveraged; families, business and govt must de-leverage. Spending trillions we don’t have is not the answer.
I only wish the House GOP were as concerned about the $350 BILLION they approved for President Bush to give to the banks with no oversight and which subsequently vanished,
I agree, DC (the city) is in a tough spot. Can’t do anything without federal approval, half of their tax base is non-existent as it is all federal stuff and most of the people that work here live in Maryland or Virginia.
The city itself gets treated a bit like a stepchild, improvements on the Mall would have been nice, it’s a great place to run.
So yes, even if you want to call the stimulus a giant “pork bill” it could still have pork added to it if those additions don’t reflect the general spirit/goals of the piece of legislation.
But I don’t see how that’s possible if the “Spirt” and “Goal” of the package is to “Spend money”, so anything in this package is indeed abiding by the “Goal and Spirit” of the package so in essence by that definition nothing in this can be “Pork”.
My reasoning being that every dollar spent provides “Some” stimulus, however temporary and how ever low on long term return. So everything spent is indeed “Stimulus”…not “pork”.
So for future reference I just suggest that every bill now sent thru congress be called a “Stimulus” package and we can get away from anything being called “Pork”
The industry research firm Moody’s Economy.com tracked the potential impact of each stimulus dollar, looking at tax rebates, tax incentives for business, food stamps and expanding unemployment benefits.
The report found that “some provide a lot of bang for the buck to the economy. Others … don’t,” said economist Mark Zandi.
In findings echoed by other economists and studies, he said the study shows the fastest way to infuse money into the economy is through expanding the food-stamp program. For every dollar spent on that program $1.73 is generated throughout the economy, he said.
“If someone who is literally living paycheck to paycheck gets an extra dollar, it’s very likely that they will spend that dollar immediately on whatever they need - groceries, to pay the telephone bill, to pay the electric bill,” he said.
