I went to Dan's Camp, learned a lot, had a blast, and came back to our shop with as many questions as I had before I went. I think FIST has brought the tri bike fitting arena closer to uniform.
We have not “charged” for our fits thus far. I have instead used FIST as a tool with the understanding that fit is “dynamic”. Fit will change with fitness,friends and trends.
We did just get in a Tacx trainer to measure watts and I built a damn fancy digital protractor with a laser to measure seat angle. (email or call for info on it). It is good to see that Dan is also tweaking FIST. Until this am, I had not been sure where to measure "true" seat angle.
While Dan says seat angle on tri bikes should be measured 17mm behind nose of saddle, I vote we all agree to measure 20mm back for ease of remembering.
So, back to my question. Who has been fit at a FIST certified shop and have you kept that exact position?
My FIST fit did not work for me atl all. Rode it just long enough to have a crappy bike at AG Nats, then went directly to regular bike guy who put me back in a more slam-type position that made me much happier…power AND comfort-wise.
Don’t think there’s anything inherently wrong with the FIST approach, it just isn’t right for me.
I have to chime in on this one. Going to FIST school doesn’t make you a bike fitter. Experience and practice does. FIST school only helps you learn more about the craft. It is a tool, and just like any one tool, it doesn;t complete the entire tool kit or give you the know-how to use it. You don;t come back from FIST and say, “Everybody rides in this position…” If you are an experienced fitter who has worked with and listened to literally thousands of customers you will know what is an is not appropriate for a given customer. Only 1/4 of the customers who leave our store with a triathlon bike are in a “pure” FIST-like position.
Also, customers have to remember they have to “meet the position half way” and learn to adapt to it. That takes a year for some people. Some people never do (the fitter should be able to tell in advance). Some people “fall” right into a FIST style position.
There seems to be this on-going debate as to which is better: A “Testa” position, “Big Slam” or a “FIST” position or a “Russian” postion or whatever. No one position is “the best”.
The bike fitters job is to determine which position is best suited for the customer, and vice versa. Then, using basic bicycle mechanical knowledge- get the customer in that position- the one that suits them best.
In my opinion, one of the most dangerous things is a new fitter who has been to FIST school and comes back “knowing everything”. That doesn’t work, they know just enough to be dangerous. I think a person needs to do a LOT of triathlon specific fits and also do a LOT of triathlons themselves and own a lot of different bikes before they can be a good fitter. That’s called experience.
Triathlons and “bike fitting” is the hot thing right now. There are a lot of people hanging a “bike fitter” sign in front of their door. Very, very few know what they are doing.
I will agree with Tom, just going to FIST camp, or running five ultra marathons has not made me an expert in either. Being in an industry at a level which requires you know the whole industry will give you a better knowledge base and allow you to suggest what you think is the best. The best product for a specific purpose. Knowledge of the hundreds of bikes which can be used to finish a triathlon is probably best found in a store, like Bikesport Michigan, which stocks all types of bicycles.
I guess I will re-state my question in a little different way. Who is still in the position which they paid someone to put them in and is totally happy with it?
Forget FIST. Tom is on the money. We have been fitting folks for 28 years on bikes for racing Triathlons. I think experience speaks very soundly.
Well, Shawn, I think we are in agreement. And, I know for a fact that the fits that come out of your store (based on what I’ve seen) are solid.
However, I wouldn’t say “forget FIST”. I was in the first FIST class and learned a great deal. I had the benefit of being in that class with some of the best fitters from around the U.S. and Canada. That was an enormous benefit. Also, there is alot to be said from learning the philosophy from the man who invented the triathlon geometry- or at least popularized it. I thought that was very important.
My point was, FIST is not the “be-all, end-all” of bike fit or triathlon bike fit. It is one tool in a large tool box that every fitter should have.
Bike fitting is not rocket science, voodoo, black magic or anything of the sort. It is experience and careful, basic mechanics.
You guys do a good job from what I’ve seen. That already says a lot about your operation, as do your insights on this forum.
BUT I will re-state my question in yet a different way.
If you have paid to be fit on your bicycle, how long do you keep your bike set that way? Months, years, days? How often do you think you need to get your fit tuned-up?
Your fit changes when you change. Gain Weight? Lose weight? Increase flexibility and core strength from a year of yoga? Injure your back? Have a baby? All these things can cause the need for a re-fit. I have had customers who have had breast reduction surgery and, as a result, have been able to modify their position since there is more clearance between their femur and torso post-surgery.
Any physical change in the body results in a commensurate positional change.
I’m lucky enough to live very close to Bikesport.Tom & his staff has been fitting me on bikes for the last 7 years,starting with a used road bike that was to big when I bought it all the way to the present, Litespeed Saber (IMO the best bike on the market). I continue to change position to find the best combination of speed, power and comfort. I think that My position is "my"position and that there is no “mold” for that perfect, everyday/everybody fit. I think if you’re not happy with your fit you need to tweek it a bit to find “your” position. The guys at your LBS can only help if you tell them you are not happy, let them know what you are feeling or experiencing.
While Dan says seat angle on tri bikes should be measured 17mm behind nose of saddle, I vote we all agree to measure 20mm back for ease of remembering.
Shawn, Do you mean 17cm?
Yep. I always get my millimeters mixed up with my centimeters. (Damn, I have to admit I did not even pay attention to what I was typing or thinking.)
yes, 17cm from nose to back of saddle puts you right at where the seatpost would intersect the seat if you continued it up through the saddle.
With that, I agree with Dan 170mm. is now the standard. Tha gospel according to Dan.
I don’t know much about bike stuff…except that I like to ride…so I gotta ask how/why you are willing to wager the big bucks on a guess about my postiion?
Seriously, I’n not trying to be a smart a$$, just curious and wanting to learn more. 'Splain yourself, please :-).
FIST, Slam, or whomever, fitting is not a one time deal and may change in 5 year, 1 year or partial year fractions. If you train more and get tighter in the hamstrings or back, have a knee problem, or start taking yoga can greatly effect your position. That is where you need to have a relationship with your fitter to look at the equasion several times to get your fit for the now circumstance. G
My feeling is that a tri bike for an athlete needs to be completed so that the athlete is able to produce the most wattage possible and be totally comfortable at the same time. We can say that a general set up needs to be applied and then fine tune that to meet the specific needs of the athlete. But how do we access that afterwards? We can use power meters or better yet an EMG unit to really see how and what the muscle is doing under a load to produce the effort. I do agree that just because someone attends the FIST or any other fit workshop doesn’t mean that they have now mastered all the critical issues of fitting. There is a whole other side: the physiological aspect/the biomenchanical issues of position/elasticity properties of the muscle and how it responds to repeated stress. These are just a few things that come to mind. I have seen so many bike shops and coaches who attend a weekend certification course start doing fits and end up doing more harm than good. So let’s continue to learn and study every aspect of accessing the end result of any type of fit that is completed out there. There are a vast number of people who are very good and yet have their own ideas. No matter who we are being able to learn will continue to make us all much faster down the road.
Steve Fluet
ESTS Coaching
Coaching Advisory Panel- Degree IM Project
Online Training- Ironmanlive
most people who’ve never been to a FIST workshop don’t know what a FIST fit is. lamentably, some who have been to one still don’t know what a FIST fit is. but they’re a lot further down the road than they were, at least.
a REALLY good bike fitter is one who understands both bikes and bodies. he knows his way around A&P and a bike shop, and knows both where to find the greater trochanter and ASIS, and how to measure front/center and trail. not 1 in 100 self-described professional tri bike fit experts meet the criteria outlined above, and going to a FIST workshop isn’t going to get you there any more than completing 6 years of school and becoming a physical therapist will.
as to a FIST fit, shawn and tom know what it is, others who’ve posted to this thread have no real freakin’ idea what they’re talking about. you can be set up at 75-degrees of seat angle and fall perfectly well inside of a FIST fit. or you can have 81 degrees of seat angle and be just as properly FIST fit. it’s all described on slowtwitch. but it actually takes 15 minutes to read, and most “professional bike fitters” just can’t spare that 15 minutes.
unless i know that you know what a FIST fit is, i’m assuming you don’t know whether you’re FIST fit or not. so i’ll throw it back to you. what do you think a FIST fit is?
Here’s where I show my true ignorance ;-)…but I’m willing if you are.
When I got my new bike (KM40, if it matters) I was fit at a tri shop by a guy who had done the FIST clinic (yadayadayada). He moved me forward of the bb, lower in the front end with lots of attention paid to 90 degree type angles. He took a lot of time and appeared to be very conscientious. I know he wanted me to be “right”
So, the more I rode the bike, the worse I felt. Uncomfortable, no power (blahblahblah).
After AG Nats, I knew I had to do something. I went to see MY bike guru (a roadie-man extraordinaire) who moved my seat back, bot me slightly behind the bb and raised me up in the front end. Instant improvement in both comfort and power. I asked him if the new position was more of a slam thing and he said “pretty much”.
I know (or think ;-)) that it has a lot to do with hip angles, etc. I have tried to read your descriptions and instructions, but it’s all greek to me. I have checked the stuff on Bikesport’s site as well, trying to comprehend. So, feel free to educate me…I can take it if you call me an idiot ;-)…I’m just trying to figure it all out in as non-techie style as possible.
“slightly behind the bb and raised me up in the front end.”
i wonder whether you could accurately measure the distance between two vertical lines, one through your bottom bracket and another through your saddle’s nose? in other words, if you dropped a plumb bob, or held a carpenter’s level vertically, from the nose of your saddle, where would its representation be relative to the bottom bracket axle?
and also, can you measure from the top of your saddle in a straight line down to the bottom bracket?
Dan- I have read all the info on a FIST on this site. I totally agree with your points listed on what good fitters should know and understand. Your point on A and P and the bike shop are ideally stated. You know that as well as the other people you mentioned as well. I am not doubting FIST at all- I am just wondering about how any type of fit whether FIST or other fit techniques can really be accessed to fully understand if it is allowing the athlete to be at his or her best. I am the type of person that is always trying to learn as much as possible. Thanks Dan for your time on this.
Steve Fluet
ESTS Coaching
Coaching Advisory Panel- Degree IM Project
Online Training- Ironmanlive
USTS Level 2 Coach
“slightly behind the bb and raised me up in the front end.”
i wonder whether you could accurately measure the distance between two vertical lines, one through your bottom bracket and another through your saddle’s nose? in other words, if you dropped a plumb bob, or held a carpenter’s level vertically, from the nose of your saddle, where would its representation be relative to the bottom bracket axle?
and also, can you measure from the top of your saddle in a straight line down to the bottom bracket?
“I am just wondering about how any type of fit whether FIST or other fit techniques can really be accessed to fully understand if it is allowing the athlete to be at his or her best.”
another thread asks the question about pitting HR versus watts on a trainer to determine the most appropriate fit. i think there in a variety of reasons why that’s largely an exercise in futility. yes, certainly a person who generates 20 more watts with the same HR in a different position has gained some valuable information, but you’d have to be horribly positioned to see a 20% drop in power.
without going into an extensive explanation, here are what i’d say are the ways you test the position:
is the subject entirely comfortable? and it is implicit that power is part of comfort. it is uncomfortable to be in a position that costs you power. so, can you ride the entire distance of the bike leg of the race for which you’re being positioned without getting out of the aero position? if not, you’ve got a bad fit. that’s the A-number-one goal of a FIST fit.
are you able to ride this position with an acceptably high cadence?
are you firing all your thigh/trunk muscles? a hip angle that is too obtuse will be just as muscle-limiting as one that is too acute.
short of hopping into the wind tunnel there are limits to what you can do to test aerodynamics, but if one more/less understands the basics of what a more aero position looks like, are you reasonably aero?
do you have a position that will allow for all the handling, braking and shifting issues?
do you have, or have knowledge of what you need, in terms of peripherals to optimize your comfort? (saddles, seat pads, aero bars, etc.).
are you doing anything anatomically that suggests a problem? (e.g., is your anterior superior iliac spine higher on one side than the other, or does each side markedly rise and fall when pedaling?)
i personally don’t think this requires a hoity-toity power and HR measuring system. altho i have one i don’t find it particularly necessary to use.
nobody ever leaves a fit session with me underpowered or unaero, and certainly they don’t leave uncomfortable. whether a person is FIST-certified or not it’s not that hard to be a good bike fitter and to know that a person has left a fit session well-serviced. that’s not to say fitting is not a skill. a lot of being a good fitter is in doing it day-in and day-out, as tom and shawn do.
we can banter the fine points of this, but when i come to a town, and i sit my ass down 15 miles into the bike ride of an oly-distance course, and i see half the athletes riding with their hands on their pursuit bars at this point of the race, i know all i need to know about the level of bike fit expertise in this town. we can talk about SRMs and cameras shooting hi-contrast images while you’re on the trainer, and all that. but until triathletes are actually riding on their aero bars for 25 whole miles, all the theoretical discussions are just so much farting in the wind.
