Ironman slots

Triathlon Forum
1

Please redirect this is it’s already been discussed, and I’d be surprised if it hasn’t been, but I’m competitive and always try to get a slot. With the WTC adding more and more races each race has less slots. Ironman Canada used to always have at least 100 slots; now it’s 80. For my age group, W50-54, even if we have 50 people racing, we get 2 slots. I think WTC needs to stop producing so many qualifying races for Kona. I know, how can they stop when the money is just flowing in? Have Ironman Races but have some that are qualifying (for Kona) races where the competitive people can go, and then offer Ironman races that aren’t qualifiers. Graham Fraser, when asked about the dwindling number of spots at races, told me (in the crowd at Ironman Canada) that the number of slots given to races was determined by WTC (not Ironman N. A.) and that most people entering the ironman races weren’t competing for a slot. What are they going to do–just keep adding ironman races (like in Kentucky) and end up with 30 slots at each race? At what point will they stop taking slots away from the established races? Also, I don’t feel that the number of participants let into most ironman races (nearly 2000) is safe. The only part of the race that feels truly as if I’m racing is the run: the bike course is so crowded and the swims are a joke. I’ve usually raced in Canada so guess I’m just talking about Canada and Idaho. I say have smaller, qualifying races with slots and other ironman races that aren’t qualifiers, both put on by the WTC and/or IMNA 'cause they’re the real deal and do a fantastic job of it.

Thanks for listening to my rant.

2

So would the races still sell out if they had 1/2 the number of slots but charged twice as much for the entry fee? IMNA would actually make more money since the supplies/support would be less because less people, but same amount of money coming in. Now the local area’s might not like it because 1/2 the number of people showing up for the events so less hotels booked ect…

Just thinking

3

I think IMKY only has like 40 slots or something like that. That is not many for 2000+ people.

4

I have done a statistics on the distribution of the different age-groups in Kona 1992 vs. 2006 (and if anyone knows how to post an PDF I would like to put that on here).

Bottomline of that statistic was: The trend goes towards women and higher AGs.

I think that has to do with more races (as you stated). But my conclusion is the opposite as yours. Because of the more races it becomes increasingly easier to qualify, say in your AG, as the minimum slots per race stays still 1. That means, 25 races will guarentee your AG 25 spots at least for Hawaii, while the number in the main male AGs (30-34 and 35-39) has halved (!) between 1992 and 2006.

On the other hand it is hard to say what to do about that. You stated that the races all sell out so it is right to put on more races to give more people a chance to race.

I´m not sure what would happen if some IMs would not have slots. I suspect that they would automatically become less attractive even to people who have no chnace or desire to qualify.

Pre-qualifications would be one option, but that would mean you have to do 3 IMs if you would want to go to Hawaii (maybe over 2 years?). I don´t think that would work.

What about reducing the number of races that offer slots for higher AGs and leave other races that have slots for the main AGs only? Just kidding, would not be very popular.

Fact is that the proportions of the AGs in Kona do not reflect the proportions of the Ironmen overall. Women and and higher AGs are overrepresented. Is that bad? I don´t know. It´s the world-champs and I like that at least there every AG is very competetive.

Axel

5

Axel:

I believe I did read your earlier post about slots and statistics which just goes to show how one can use statistics however they want since both of us, although with opposing viewpoints, are right. I know, there are so many wonderful athletes in the M30-34 group and those on either side who never get slots. It must kill them to see old ladies get a slot for doing a 12 hour ironman when perhaps they were 2 hours faster. On the other hand, I got a slot one year (2002) doing a 12 hour ironman in the w45-49 group, but it was the 4th of 4 slots. I’ve never again seen 4 slots in my age group. If what Fraser said is right, that most people aren’t trying to get a slot, it shouldn’t make any difference to them whether the race is a qualifier or not. I wish they’d open some non-qualifying ironman races and see what happens. I doubt they’d lose money; I bet those races would still fill up quickly.

6

“The only part of the race that feels truly as if I’m racing is the run: the bike course is so crowded and the swims are a joke”, Then feel free to not race an Ironman-branded(WTC) race then… I bet there are plenty of other Ironmandistances-races you can choose from where there isn’t 2000 starting.

Dave

7

Just to clarify: I didn´t say that a M30-34er rightfully can complain that “old ladies” get a slot for a slower time. Of course qualifying time are different at different age (and gender as well).

I just wanted to make a point that that the procentual-chance of getting to Kona is bigger if one is older and female.

Your point that that you once got a 4th slot out of 4 and have never seen as many slots again prooves little.
I got a slot for 17th once (in Japan) when there were 35 slots (ok, that was looong ago). Now I got the 6th at Moo when there were 10. That seems to suggest that it is more difficult now, but on the other hand while there few qualification-races I would´ve never been 6th because the fast guys (and gals) now distribute more since there are more races.

The W45-49 had 31 finishers in 1992 (2.27% of the field), in 2006 there were 49 (2.9% of the field).
The M30-34 had 239 finishers in 1992 (17.52% of the field), in 2006 there were 181 (10.72% of the field).

Entries per age group Ironman Hawaii 1992 vs. 2006
1992 Total: 1364 2006 Total: 1689
men % women % men % women %
Pro 84 6,16 34 2,49 83 4,9 55 3,26
18-24 92 6,74 22 1,61 29 1,72 21 1,24
25-29 180 13,2 40 2,93 96 5,68 48 2,84
30-34 239 17,52 46 3,37 181 10,72 69 4,08
35-39 196 14,37 23 1,69 227 13,44 70 4,14
40-44 138 10,12 29 2,13 215 12,73 59 3,49
45-49 88 6,45 31 2,27 166 9,83 49 2,9
50-54 40 2,93 9 0,66 100 5,92 33 1,95
55-59 27 1,98 7 0,51 49 2,9 22 1,3
60-64 14 1,03 3 0,22 39 2,31 14 0,83
64-69 14 1,03 1 0,07 26 1,54 6 0,35
70-74 9 0,66 12 0,71 2 0,12
75-79 2 0,15 7 0,41 1 0,06

Axel

8

In Reply To Graham Fraser, when asked about the dwindling number of spots at races, told me (in the crowd at Ironman Canada) that the number of slots given to races was determined by WTC (not Ironman N. A.) and that most people entering the ironman races weren’t competing for a slot. At what point will they stop taking slots away from the established races? Also, I don’t feel that the number of participants let into most ironman races (nearly 2000) is safe.

Concerning your first point:
I don’t quite think that Mr. Fraser was telling the whole story as he stated WTC assigns the number of slots to a particular race. It’s the same game all over the world: the more money you pay the more slots you get. Why do you think IM Germany has 120 slots in one race? Because they paid a lot more money than other race organizers.
Just remember IMNA has a total of 550 slots Mr Fraser pays a lot of money for. And it seems he decides in how many races he distributes them. If I am wrong correct me on this! If he chose to put up fewer races there would be more slots at each race. But understandably he also wants to make the most of the license. Thus I don’t think it is WTC significantly taking away slots from established races, it’s IMNA choosing to stage more races in which to distribute their current slots. The way I understand it is that you buy a certain number of slots and can, to some degree do with them what you want. IMNA chose to put up IMOO in 02 and CdA in 03 with 80 slots each. They had to come from somewhere and they came from the other NA IM races. What is true on the other hand is, that slots in Germany went down from 180 in Roth in 2001 to 120 in Frankfurt in 2002. But there a new race organizer made a new deal with WTC.
If you have raced Kona you will know that that course will (hopefully) never (have to) take 2000 athletes so the total number of slots has a certain limit.

On your second point:
“They” will stop taking slots away when they can’t guarantee the minimum of one slot per age group any more (that’s 20/race) or even before that if the outcry of the athletes is too loud. But as long as the sport grows at its current rate, the number of Races will go up and the number of slots at each race wil go down.

On the Third point:
2.000 is ok as long as the starting line is wide enough! Otherwise one (but the WTC forbids it, I understand) should go for wave starts instead.

9

Just remember IMNA has a total of 550 slots Mr Fraser pays a lot of money for. And it seems he decides in how many races he distributes them. If I am wrong correct me on this!
**
I believe you are wrong.* *WTC does control the distribution of slots and dictates how many each race can have. Yes, the RD has to purchase the slots, but its not a “free market”. I doubt Graham buys the slots in a package of 550 or has much control on distribution of slots to his individual races.

10

I agree the older slots and women do an advantage. Look at IMUSA 35-39 this year. Almost 500 racers and only 11 slots, need a top 2% placing to get a slot. While the pros have 8 slots for almost 30 racers, a top 25% placing gets you in. So all I need to do is get faster or hold my current fitness another 4 yrs and get a slot in the 40-44AG.
It seems to me that since the 35-39 AG is footing a majority of the expenses then they should be allowed the proper # of slots.
S

11

Obviously the Pros do get a different %, otherwise there would be only 1 Pro slot. But that´s ok with me.

Did you caculate other AGs? I thought the rule was something like this: If a AG represents x % of the total AG field, then they get x % of the available AG slots. Is that not so?

Axel

12

That is what I thought. Evidently that is not the case. Especially at IMUSA. However I have yet to see the official IM slot allocation rules posted coreectly. It seems they post one set of rules and follow another. I am all for rules as long as everyone is made aware or them.
S

13

Obviously the Pros do get a different %, otherwise there would be only 1 Pro slot. But that´s ok with me.

Did you caculate other AGs? I thought the rule was something like this: If a AG represents x % of the total AG field, then they get x % of the available AG slots. Is that not so?

Axel

I think this rule is applied to all slots except the first slot in each AG as one slot per AG is guaranteed. And they relate to the actual number of people who show up on race day, not to the number of registered athletes.

Some info from the IMNA website:

"For additional age group slots, slot allocation shall be representative of the actual number of age grouper applicants in each category in the race. As an example, if 8% of the age-group applicants are females 40-44, then 8% of these slots would be allocated in the female 40-44 category. Please note that at 10 percent of Ford Ironman World Championship slots at full-distance Ironman North America events are allocated to Professionals…i.e. 80 qualifying spots, eight are reserved for pros. "

14

I am fairly certain that IMNA does not have control of the slot allocation. Last year it appeared that IMNA pulled their slots for other IMNA races and hawaii at qualifying races like eagleman. I talked with frazier on the phone and that was a WTC decision that he had no control of.
The more people that race triathlon the bigger the talent pool and that means more competition for those slots. You just have to get faster.
I doublt that I’ll qualify, but I still do the races and try to get better. Kid yourself as much as you want, but WTC and IMNA put on great races and there is no comparison to other races. The great floridian is a great race, but there is no comparison in the two. You can’t bash IMNA for doing a good job (well you can but your an idiot)

15

In Reply To I am fairly certain that IMNA does not have control of the slot allocation. Last year it appeared that IMNA pulled their slots for other IMNA races and hawaii at qualifying races like eagleman. I talked with frazier on the phone and that was a WTC decision that he had no control of.
The more people that race triathlon the bigger the talent pool and that means more competition for those slots. You just have to get faster.
I doublt that I’ll qualify, but I still do the races and try to get better. Kid yourself as much as you want, but WTC and IMNA put on great races and there is no comparison to other races. The great floridian is a great race, but there is no comparison in the two. You can’t bash IMNA for doing a good job (well you can but your an idiot)

Well, to the point:

At least with overseas events the organizers have something like contracts in which they are guaranteed a certain amount of slots for a certain number of years by WTC. Mr. Farser is sure to have something like that, too. And in case the contracts expire they have to renewed. And in in that case WTC offers him less slots or demands higher prices they are free to do so!

I have NEVER stated that either IMNA and/or WTC do bad jobs at what they are doing! The events I have seen or participated in were always of the highest standards (I’ve not been to Clearwater by the way ;-)).
It is their absolute right to do with the franchice whatever they want.

And in the end you just have to be fast enough to qualify. It’s KONA after al and only the best are to go!

By the way: There are races outside the US that are run at least as good as any IMNA event. Just come and see IM races in Australia, New Zealand, Austria, Germany (Roth & Frankfurt).

16

Why are there so many pro slots available at each race? The sport is funded and furthered by the AG-ers. I know the answer to this question already, I just am tired of having to admit that it all comes down to dollars. The pros are sponsored by the same companies that advertise at the events, therefore the pros are their billboards, if you will.
Do the total number of slots available for a given race include the pro slots, or are they split up between pro and AG?

17

For the NA races: If it says “80 slots” it reads: 8 to the pros and 72 to the AGs.

For IM Germany it’s 120 slots from which 7 go to the pros (4 male, 3 female).

18

sorry, the idiot was not directed at you. I wanted to respond to your post, and my train of thought continued to the other posts but I’m lazy and didn’t want to respond to each one.

19

Are you married to H2Owhatever? And did he make you post this?

20

excuse accepted! :wink: