Ironman research - what do you think is lacking?

Reading through some of the articles here on Slowtwitch has highlighted (to me) the lack of athlete (and coach) input into sport science research at the ground level.

Rather than:
Scientist sees unknown → Research to find answer → Academic answer → few years later athletes may find out & it may not hold practical relevance.

How about:
Athlete sees unknown → Scientist refines unknown & Researches → Academic + Practical answer → Improved performance and/or understanding.

(This is a very loose example, only to prove a point)

**So, as athletes, do you have any ideas or suggestions that you would like to see researched by the sports science community? **


Thank you for any input, those who support this will receive updates on progress

I think we’d all like some more light shed on the steep/shallow STA debate. The existing study is pretty flawed.

hmm…interesting, im studying sports psychology…soon as i get an idea ill let you know thanks post
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Hello SportsSciGeek and All,

Some peer review of the following would be nice … then we might know if we are ruining our health and longevity by engaging in Triathlon and endurance sports.

It appears there is a dearth of science on the subject. So far I have two medical people that disagree with Mark’s theory: “Studies have shown an increase in mortality when weekly caloric expenditure exceeds 4,000.” One is a sports nutritionist (that has done IM -perhaps biased) and one is a medical doctor (that has won IM Hawaii age group many times - and perhaps biased). Mark states that 4000 calories equates to about 40 miles of just running each week - more miles than the runners 27 miles average in the Stanford study I quote below.

Possibly Mark’s studies include activities that in their nature have a high risk - rock climbing, exploring underwater caves, combat, and so on with the death toll not entirely related to exceeding the 4000 calories per week. It would be interesting to see the studies quoted. I hope Mark will write a follow up aritcle for Slowtwitch.

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One study that supports an active life stye is the Stanford Runner Study: http://www.pponline.co.uk/encyc/0223.htm

Excerpts - may be out of context:

Is it true that running is hard on the knees, hips, and feet? Runners still hear about that supposed connection, and there seems to be a kernel of truth in the supposition. After all, running is the kind of sport which produces ‘wear-and-tear’ injuries, not traumatic ones, and one key form of arthritis - osteoarthritis - is a wear-and-tear disease, in which the cartilage inside joints is gradually eroded over time. But what does the scientific literature really say? Do the relentless impact forces of running (a force greater than two and one-half times body weight is transmitted through the leg with each footstep, 1700 times per mile) eventually cause the cartilaginous structures in the knees and hips to deteriorate into the inflamed, arthritic state’?

The most comprehensive study concerning running and disability was begun in 1984 at the Stanford Arthritis Center in the US. Initially, 863 people (632 males and 231 females) ranging in age from 50 to 72 took part in the research. 498 individuals were long-distance runners, while 365 subjects did not run at all. The runners averaged about 210 minutes (27 miles) of running per week, had been running for an average of 12 years, and weighed considerably less than their sedentary counterparts ( 147 versus 161 pounds). Some of the runners had logged as many as 17,000 total miles during the 12 years leading up to the study.

The first five years
Over an initial five-year period, the benchmark Stanford study found that runners did NOT experience higher rates of arthritis, compared to ‘average’ individuals in the overall population. In fact, runners actually had a lower risk of disability in their muscular and skeletal systems, despite all of the aches and pains which are usually associated with a regular running programme. Runners made fewer visits to the doctor, spent about 33 per cent less time in the hospital, missed half as many work days, and - as expected - had lower blood pressures and resting heart rates, compared to non-runners. In addition, runners gave themselves higher perceived health ratings. To put it simply, runners FELT healthier than non-runners, and in fact they were.

What about the notion that knees and legs are damaged by the miles and miles of hard pounding associated with running? Well, disabling problems in the legs were actually five times as likely to occur in sedentary individuals, compared to runners. Running was also linked with fitter upper bodies: disabling conditions in the arms and shoulders were 20 times as likely to develop in non-runners!

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From ST - http://www.slowtwitch.com/mainheadings/features/health_doping_slowtwitch2.html

Excerpt from Mark Sisson ST article:

“Let’s get one thing straight right off the bat: Endurance training is antithetical to anti-aging. So it amazes me when guys in their 40s and 50s who are training for a marathon or Ironman suggest that doing so will keep them young. It won’t. You may feel like a stud now with your shaved legs and your magic marker biceps tattoos, but endurance training speeds up the aging process almost as fast as watching TV, drinking sodas and eating potato chips. Actually, in some cases, it speeds it up even faster.”

“The problem with many, if not most, age group endurance athletes is that the low-level training gets out of hand. They overtrain in their exuberance to excel at racing, and they over consume carbohydrates in an effort to stay fueled. The result is that over the years, their muscle mass, immune function, and testosterone decrease, while their cortisol, insulin and oxidative output increase (unless you work so hard that you actually exhaust the adrenals, introducing an even more disconcerting scenario). Any anti-aging doc will tell you that if you do this long enough, you will hasten, rather than retard, the aging process. Studies have shown an increase in mortality when weekly caloric expenditure exceeds 4,000.”

What do you think?

Cheers,

Neal

it would be nice to know the degree to which differing amounts of different INTENSITIES of exercise might affect health and longevity; especially when other risk factors are taken into account - but such studies would either take a very long time to develop, or would require sifting through a huge amount of varying case and anecdotal data, and integrating it with sufficient rigor to withstand criticism. Longevity as a function of hydration strategy might be an amusing appendix…

It would also be good to follow up the individual cases which have been tested for various markers of cardiac and muscle stress, not just before and after the race, but weeks, months and years after. Again something very long term, and also quite likely already initiated on a small scale.

The problem with small studies is that peoples’ bodies’ properties seem to just as variable as their personalities; so it would be helpful to see if there were a finite group of variables that determined this variability, ultimately so that training recommendations could be tailored more closely to the individual. That would need to collate tons of data, which might already be out there in case studies.

Also interesting, and perhaps a little more practical and short term: related finishing time to amount and type of training, overall and for each component. Relate these to whether or not the bike felt hard; whether - or to what degree - the marathon split positively/negatively. Further relating these data to age; fast/slowtwitch ratio estimate; athletic history.

it would be also very instructive to see how much the swim affects the rest of the day, quantitatively!

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I’d like to see more studies that address recovery.

Not sure if this is what you are getting at but…

belief based coaching vs. evidence based coaching.

If we have the data at our disposale why not use it? Why keep guessing?

I have a suggestion. The same study that was done with athletes participating at Ironman South Africa some years ago, but done in a very hot/humid race like Hawaii or Malaysia.

Your suggestion that sport scientists can benefit from feedback from “practitioners” (i.e., athletes and coaches) is a good one…that is, after all, the way it works (the way it should, anyway) in other arenas in the biomedical sciences. That said, though, I have to wonder just how much useful feedback you’ll get, given that the vast majority of athletes and coaches have no idea what’s already been done (a fact for which both groups deserve some blame).

why don’t we have slowman set up an area on the site with a ‘recommended reading’ list. people can put links to abstracts, studies, tests, whatever. then we can read them as we wish and those making points in posts can reference them.
just a thought

i think it was in noakes book ‘lore of running’ that he said he took an advanced medical class taught be a world famous teacher and the first day of class the teacher said - half of what i am about to teach you is wrong, problem is i don’t know which half.

Some peer review of the following would be nice … then we might know if we are ruining our health and longevity by engaging in Triathlon and endurance sports.

It appears there is a dearth of science on the subject. So far I have two medical people that disagree with Mark’s theory: “Studies have shown an increase in mortality when weekly caloric expenditure exceeds 4,000.” One is a sports nutritionist (that has done IM -perhaps biased) and one is a medical doctor (that has won IM Hawaii age group many times - and perhaps biased). Mark states that 4000 calories equates to about 40 miles of just running each week - more miles than the runners 27 miles average in the Stanford study I quote below.

What do you think?

Cheers,

Neal

Hi Neal,
Sorry I am short for time in this reply but I have been looking at some very recient research performed looking at oxidative stress (causing free radicals etc etc) and its reliavance to ultraendurance athletes, namely Ironman athletes. Very quickly (and off the top of my head) I can remember the investigatiors suggesting from their findings that the training one does also builds a resistance to the ill-effects of such health issues that you may be talking about.

So, I guess what Im trying to say is… Yes some new research into the subject is being published and from what I can gather the health issues that where raised in earlier studys are being considered. When I get a chance I will post a link to the research I am talking about I will (or can email it to you directly if you like).

Thanks for your thoughts.

ME,

I like training intervention studies although the slack vs steep for varying body types would be interesting to revisit with up to date biom/phys techniques.

Training interventions -

  1. Would love to see a review of the best way to do a training intervention and perhaps a comparison of the top protocals (unless this has been done recently? I have been coaching more lately rather than searching articles).
  2. Determine what physiological tests best correlates to Ironman Specific Performance. Maybe this needs to be #1?
  3. When #1 and #2 are done I would like to see what varying the proportion of sub FT training, FT and supra FT training has on the highly correlated measure for an Ironman swim, bike or run time.

I would be most interested in looking at how many days of supra FT or FT focused training to the # of days of sub FT focused training is optimal. For example, is it beneficial to do 10 or 20 days of FT/supraFT focused training and then 7 or 14 or 21 days of sub FT training?

  1. Lastly, I do think that people can be better matched up to a certain protocol based on their body’s physiology. So, comparing the effects of sub and supra FT training on equivalent athlete’s with different proportions of fibre types. Anyone up for muscle biopsy’s?

Just some dreamy thoughts…

Scott
Factor 9 Coaching
new site: www.f9tc.com

Longevity/Mortality? Hmmm, that is not why I do Ironman, I do it to live each day while I am here.

I think we’d all like some more light shed on the steep/shallow STA debate. The existing study is pretty flawed.
Along the same lines, I would like too see a large number of people tested at different seat angles, and with different hip angles (more open or closed). Give them a 20k time trial at different seat angles and (or), and also take good measurement of inseam, hip to knee (femur?) knee to angle (tibia). torso length, arm length…not very scientific the way I just stated things…but you get the idea.

Hi everyone, this is my first time posting on this site- exciting. This thread interested me quite a bit, since I am a 3x (soon to be 4x after Louisville) Ironman finisher and a Graduate student in an Exercise Physiology sequence in a midwestern university. I am putting together a thesis proposal, and so far it is very similar to what several of you have suggested, but let me tell you one thing first:

My ultimate goal in life to create a regression equation accurately predicting Ironman performance from significant variables, such as the obvious age, gender, sex, vo2max, body comp, initial skill level (determined by TT and grouped) etc., but ALSO including variables that you can manipulate in your own training in attempts to achieve your goal Ironman time, such as mileage in each discipline, time in training zones, average sleep per week, coached or not…

but there are some variables that will be more difficult to quantify, such as weather and terrain (this could done though: how about putting out the same wattage on each type of course, then observing the time difference?)…

So you see how awesome this would be??

Here’s how I plan to get started on this: A pilot study to complete Master’s Requirements, tentatively entitled: “Variables that Affect Ironman Performance”

SUBJECTS: Ironman competitors in 2008 (preferably local that can come to lab)
STEP 1: Initial questionnaire, Time Trials
STEP 2: 4-6 month training log submitted to me weekly (variables set by me)
STEP 3: vo2max and body comp early in taper
STEP 4: ASSESSMENT: Ironman performance based on age group placement overall and in each of the disciplines.
STEP 5: Run all data through SPSS and find significant correlations.
**opt. step 6: questionnaire/physical examination- who is injured? what variables (under/over training) were significantly correlated?
(There are a ton of factors/details I’m not including b/c it would take forever)

This will tell me what factors SIGNIFICANTLY affect Ironman performance…this will be jumping-off point for future research with training interventions, and a start to a regression equation…hmmmm…

I had to get this out in the tri community- one comment my advisor made to me was that the value/worth of this study was “questionable.” What do you all think?

My ultimate goal in life to create a regression equation accurately predicting Ironman performance
“The best predictor of performance is performance itself.” - A. Coggan, ca. 1980

Not sure if something similar to this has been posted…I was too lazy to read others requests.

I would like to see more research on the causes of and cures for common injuries, mainly ITBS and other overuse injuries. I am currently plagued by ITBS, so this is near and dear to me. This injury sucks and all the medical professionals I have seen have been fairly clueless on curing my ITBS, while continuing to train. Understanding the causes of the injury would be awesome and then developing best practices that will actually cure it would be great.

I assume this type of research is nearly impossible since everyone is different and varying degrees of training effect people differently.

Hello Ironwmn and All,

I like your idea.

Keep in mind that any new idea will meet resistance just because it is new.

NIH - Not Invented Here syndrome is to be expected and sometimes welcomed … it means others have not thought of it yet.

However if you are stuck with a particular advisor then you may have to bow to politics.

Sometimes after an idea percolates with other people and some time passes they begin to like it. How can you sell your idea?

Perhaps the methodology you develop could be a model for other ‘more important studies’ and your endurance study would be a way to validate your method.

In terms of benefit to society - how many endurance athletes are there to benefit from your study? … as compared to the number of fat people needing information that directly affects their health and well being, or some other widespread illness in our society?

How much money would your information gather on the open market? Does your study have potential monetary value?

Good luck,

Cheers,

Neal

I think that studies need to be taken out of the lab and onto the race /training course. I realize that the research will be questioned because of lack of control… but at some point we need to see human subject studies that reflect functional, real-life situations. The findings will still be significant and well received.

“given that the vast majority of athletes and coaches have no idea what’s already been done”

well, i mean, not including the people who read slowtwitch, right?

I feel that you may not have time to do work of high quality at the Masters level - the constraints there would ultimately mean you were covering ground very similar to that already studied.
If your research were at a more advanced level, with time and other resources at your disposal, you may have a hard job ‘selling’ it, especially since, as stated, it seems to be insufficiently different from what has gone before to either a) excite a thesis advisor, or committee b) really stretch your research skills or c) maintain your own interest.
I feel that the kinds of studies the OP is wondering about are more likely to be ongoing research not particularly tied to a graduate sequence, with a goal of publication as a paper rather than a thesis.
However if you opted for ‘independent study’ rather than a thesis, you might be able to sell the idea of studying and collating all of the available existing studies in this field - a valuable task relating to a wish already expressed in this thread - but that would still just be part of your study, and you might have to find some original slant to your synthesis of these data, to fulfill you academic requirement.
This is just my viewpoint - music is more my area, and I’m known to be broadly opinionated. j

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