Hi Guys,
This is my first real post so be nice :). I have begun reading the forum and really like it. One question I have a hard time figuring out is how hard one can race an ironman - for the bike and the run. Because we all use different ways of determining intensity I’ll just describe how I use intensity with my numbers.
Max heart rate(191)- rested heart rate (38) *percent (0.percent)= intensity
I know this is the most standard (at least where I live) but just to make myself clear.
I’ve been racing at around 76 percent on the bike and 75 on the run. THis has given me some steady results all in the 8.40’s.
HOwever I have gotten with at new program and here I have been encouraged to race at a harder pace for next year when I have gotten stronger in my weak legs ;). On the other hand I have often heard that there are just some intensities you should stick to if you want to make it to the finish line in one piece 
Now I haven’t been training for that many years and am thinking that it must take more strength to race at a higher heart rate if this at all is possible…?
Well since there are so many people that know a so much about training and racing I would like if you could give me some insight.
Best regards Aleksandar Markovic.
if you’re posting 8:40 Ironmans… you don’t need advice from us, you need sponsorship.
If you’re running 8:40’s… then you need to back way off on the bike.
Bpq- sorry…yes finish times in 8.40’s. I’m asking because knowledge is not determined by finish time I live in a area with no so many philosofies (copenhagen, denmark) and was just wondering what if there were some in here that could enlighten me. I go fast but doesn’t know very much so don’t let finish time hold you back I’m curious to know?
I have no answers to your questions but I must congratulate on your 8:40s!!! WOW!
Mattie58 - thanks. In all fairness I have only raced fast courses (Roth and IMFlorida) and have also had a life that has allowed me to train and recover (studing ).
The reason I am curious about this question is that I really want to go faster and get an insight to how hard the ones that go really fast can push themselves. At least get another perspective on it than I have now.
You are too humble Good luck!
Looking at your IMFL results you lost time to the leaders during the run.
Do you have the ability to run faster?
Was the bike too hard?
I think you answer will come from there.
Congrats on your finish, you are awesome!!!
You would probably do well to ask a professional coach.
jaretj
hi jaretj - thanks and nice obversation. In IMFL my run was below standard. Hard to pinpoint but I messed up nutrition and think this caused the slower than I had expected time. I have run sub 3 before and had an easier bit hearrate wise but was in great form and pushed more watts than ever before - felt relaxed the whole way though. I have been working with Markallenonline since july so I have great help with the training. Normally the run is my best diciplin. I am just curious to know if there is a certin rules with intensity and what other people think about it since it’s a topic I often discus with my training buddies during those cold winter rides Example Sergio didn’t look like he was runnin at 75 percent when he was tearing things up in florida this year:)
Have you looked at the book:
“Daniels Running Formula” by Jack Daniels
He is pace oriented instead of HR. Maybe his concepts could help you since HR can vary from day to day.
Just a thought
jaretj
In the “Gordo Article” thread some were wondering how much biking a pro triathlete does compared to running and swimming.
Would you mind sharing approximate percentages of each you are doing during your training? I’m really just curious, not trying to diagnose at all.
jaretj
Don’t know the book but will check it out. Thanks. However I’m not looking for a way to improve my training since the Markallen philosofi fits me very nice. I’m just curious about what others do or get an insight on what the body is can do - a physicial insight.
Thanks for the replies
Hi
I haven´t gone that fast but i don´t think it´s possible to race at a higher lever. At least not for an average heart rate. I think the key to go faster is to keep training and develop your local capacity (muscular) and that takes years. If you have run sub 3h you probably have quite high VO2Max. I dot know how you train with intensity and slow distance workouts but i believe that if you are able to go 8:4Xh you will probably improve more from high intensity workouts than just doing lots of slow training during the winter. By the way…strength has nothing to do with your ability to push 250W or 300W. 300W with 100 cadense is 3kg and you don´t need to be strong to push that…
Are you going to any camps this spring?
hi Jocke, Thanks for the nice answer. I agree with you. Before I have done tons of lsd training and long brick sessions. I changed to Markallen because I know this is very different than lsd - this is another topic and I don’t want to open a can of worms here but it’s quit a lot different than lsd especially if you are very aerobicially fit already.
I’m actually planning a bike camp in Sweden since I don’t have the time (money) to go to Mallorca this year. You can send me an email if you have good suggestions. It has to be in south Sweden since this is close to Copenhagen.
Take care Aleksandar
Hi,
I also am just starting to try and get an understanding of interpreting heart rates(HR) and there relation to ironman racing.
You say you are cycling with a HR which is 76% of your maximum(191), which would mean you cycling with an average HR of about 140bpm on raceday?
Having talked with some people who have gone through much of the research and it seems there are some guidelines to follow but it can vary significantly between individuals. That is because performance is determined by more than just the heart obviously.
I completed a training camp recently and a sports scientist gave some feedback on the HR results. He said it was good how it(my HR) had remained steady while doing a long bike climb and steady also for rest of the bike and run.
So my interpretation is that on raceday I don’t want my HR shooting off the scale(eg. above 160bpm on the bike in tough sections). Rather I want my HR to stay relatively constant and if it does increase, then only very slowly.
I hear it is not unusual for the HR to shoot up significantly after the swim/bike transition but it must settle back down(otherwise the athlete will).
My first ironman is only 8 days away and even though I will be going mostly by feel, I will be making a mental record of what my HR is doing and slowing up if it goes above certain parameters I have set myself. My limited records of my own HR on a 6 hour training ride was an average HR of about 133bpm, so will slow up if for some reason it is 10bpm higher than this on the bike.
Have started writing about my HR on my blog and will write a follow up after the “Challenge Wanaka”.
http://www.triathlonshots.com/...manTrainingBlog.html
It is definitely an individual thing I would say and a good time to work it out is in training or a bike time trial(TT) race.
One individuals HR results I heard about was that of Torbjorn Sindballe who rode the 2007 Kona ironman with an average HR of 139bpm. He had the fastest cycle and come in 3rd. Just as interesting would be to know Macca’s HR average.
Also heard a story of an ironman who followed his pre-set HR zones precisely throughout Kona and placed 2nd overall. When asked(later) how he felt during the race he said something along the lines of ‘great all the day’. So the question is whether sticking so steadfastly to his pre-set HR zones held him back from doing even better.
Also have heard ‘lactic threshold’ tests are useful and could be measured alongside HR, but haven’t done it myself. Just read a science abstract of this and it is complicated, but VO2 max can be calculated also with this data. One thing the experiment found was they cycle TT at 85% of there maximum HR for a 60KM TT.
75% average for 180 km sounds like a good target.
Some athletes manage to get there resting HR lower than 38bpm so possibly they could get a fast time with a slower average HR.
Also do you use the big gears when you race? Some guys do and I pick this could keep their HR down if they are trained for it. Bigger muscular legs required for this would likely mean a slower run time though.
The above is just my interpretation of it so hope you check it out more to confirm.
Here is a link to some HR data from Lance Armstrong in the 1999 TDF ; http://lancearmstrong.com/training/99tdfst8.html
It is interesting but not sure how relevant it is to ironman racing.
300W with 100 cadense is 3kg and you don´t need to be strong to push that…
If I’m not mistaken 300W with 100 cadence is about 164 Newtons with 175mm cranks, or 17 kg force.
Hi Triathlonshots. Nice post. About my intensity. In my first post I tried to explain how I define intensity - see above I race with 153 bpm on the bike and run. I know the intensity is different since we have differnt heartrates and as you point out other factors have influence - I’m not too certin about these, which is also why I asked. I know Thorbjorn raced at 139 bpm but his heartrate is also way lower than mine. Cadence is also an issue - I’m small and weak 
so I ride around 90 ofcourse you could lower the heartrate by pushing a bigger gear but also I’m not sure the intensity actually falls even though the heart rate goes down - other factors must rise, again another post and too complicated for me
I think your observations are good and useful to me, thanks. However I still wish someone outthere could tell me if it’s possible to race harder intensity the more fit you get??
Also good luck in your first ironman…I’m sure you getting exicted. I hope you will have a great and fun day and that your dreams will come through.
Best regards Aleksandar
Aleksander,
1st off, as the others have mentioned, kudos on such solid races thus far. Assuming you get these more dialed in, it will be very interesting to see what kind of times you can pull off.
We could obviously go on for a novel on this subject, so I’ll throw out a few thoughts which you may find helpful. With regards to MAO, I am very familiar w/ their training techniques and as you note, not to open a can of worms but I have been very pleased w/ this style of training for quite awhile. I do not follow every principle of a Maffetone/Allen program, but believe the core foundation of the program is of great value especially for those focused on IM.
The 1st thing I may suggest to you is basing your race and training THRZ’s off of LT pace and not max. The reason I am suggesting this is you could have 2-athletes with an identical max HR, with COMPLETELY different training zones. As an example, lets say you and Joe Newbie both have a max HR of 185BPM with your LT being 165 and his LT being 145. If you both used % of max to determine THRZ and both were working out at 80% of max, one of you would be below LT and feeling fine and the other would be above and absolutely killing himself.
As for Torbjorn’s avg HR, these #’s are honestly meaningless unless we know what % of threshold this was for him. Did he need to ride at 70% of LT to be able to run? Is this 90% LT? We don’t know if his 129 is ‘easier’ or ‘harder’ than your 153 without knowing the other variables.
Assuming you have access to determine this # or at the very least can complete a field test to do so, it will help you establish what pace you may be able to race an IM.
The key to racing IM well is to be able to pace yourself accordingly on the bike, so you can start the run w/ a full tank and run at/near your open marathon HR (obviously pace will be slightly slower). In my experience with both myself and those I have worked with, I have found this equates to a HR of roughly 85% of LT on the bike. If you’ve paced yourself properly at this HR (+/-) and nutrition was ‘on’, you should start the run w/ a ‘full tank’ and be ready to run at that sub-threshold marathon pace for <3hrs. The same pacing strategy for the run may not hold true for an athlete running >4hrs, but if I were to guess, the really fast IM runners (<2:50) are running fairly close to the HR’s they would see if they were to use HR during an open marathon (not that I’m recommending a HRM for the marathon in an IM – but that may need to be for another thread ;o)
Anyway, my short response turned into somewhat of a novel, but I hope this coupled w/ other information you can gather at your level will be helpful. Once you get everything squared away I have no doubt we’ll be seeing plenty of podium finishes from you.
Best of luck in ’08!
Hi Brian…Wow great answer. THis is very useful, thanks. Judging from the answer you must know a lot about both training and racing so thanks for the insight. I’ve never been tested at anything so don’t my lt but understand the theory behind you answer and it gives me some ideas but get a detailed picture of race intensity.
Thanks for the kind words. I hope you’re right, that would be really nice with some good results Best of luck to you too.
Best regards Aleksandar
My thoughts are you should dial it in. Either 1) Get some testing done and look at where you can hold steady compared to your LT2 or 2) Test new strategies in training.
There are really only 2 possibilites: 1. You already race at the perfect intensity for you and can get faster just with more solid training. 2. You can go faster by “getting stronger” and racing at a higher intensity.
I think searching for a higher HR or the perfect HR is a tough game to do. Good to look into it to try to increase your understanding the possibilities but tough to say YES you should race at 75 or 80 or 85%.
I have seen, as most people get stronger, that they actually race at lower HR’s. However since you are already racing sub9’s then you are obviously fit and you may not see a relative decrease in racing HR that most people see.
You also have to consider personal strategy. Do you want to go off the front like Norman or do you want to win it on the run?
Just some thoughts,
Scott
300W with 100 cadense is 3kg and you don´t need to be strong to push that…
If I’m not mistaken 300W with 100 cadence is about 164 Newtons with 175mm cranks, or 17 kg force.
Haha! I don´t know why i wrote 3kg! Thanks for correcting me.