When the article was written, only 5 women had finished.
Hey Jon,
In all fairness to your friend can we keep Amatuer times out of the reporting of top 10 overall pros?
In most Ironmans the amateur women race a COMPLETELY different race from pro women.
Pro women are usually swimming solo (or at best with each other), and are riding solo. Amateur women, get the benefit (and negative aspects) of drafting age group male swimmer and legal pacing (I chose my wording carefully) off age group male riders.
Effectively the age group women are doing another event (just as age group men are).
I’d like to see ST leave out age groupers out of the reporting of top 10. I hate it when Herbert/Editorial staff put an asterisk beside an age group name in the top 10, which literally seems to tell many readers, “look how strong this athete is…racing out of age group ranks and beating pros”.
Its unfair to pros to compare them to an athlete that competed in a pseudo draft legal event. Not that pro racing is not at times pseudo draft legal, it’s just less than the mess in the age group event.
Dev
Ya I loved the recent Memphis in May thread that was touting some astounding AG times as compared to the pros. The pros raced in the afternoon when it was a 100+ degrees, swam with not wetsuits, unlike the AG’ers, and of course had most of whatever marshalling there was to be had. The only thing they had in common was covering the same distance, period. Never mind all those other factors that can change times dramatically…
Hey Jon,
**In all fairness to your friend can we keep Amatuer times out of the reporting of top 10 overall pros? **
In most Ironmans the amateur women race a COMPLETELY different race from pro women.
Pro women are usually swimming solo (or at best with each other), and are riding solo. Amateur women, get the benefit (and negative aspects) of drafting age group male swimmer and legal pacing (I chose my wording carefully) off age group male riders.
Effectively the age group women are doing another event (just as age group men are).
I’d like to see ST leave out age groupers out of the reporting of top 10. I hate it when Herbert/Editorial staff put an asterisk beside an age group name in the top 10, which literally seems to tell many readers, “look how strong this athete is…racing out of age group ranks and beating pros”.
Its unfair to pros to compare them to an athlete that competed in a pseudo draft legal event. Not that pro racing is not at times pseudo draft legal, it’s just less than the mess in the age group event.
Dev
Dev,
I’m assuming you don’t realize that IMB is a single wave start (pros & ag’s) & as such, the AG times should DEFINITELY be included in those results.
Monty, I agree, however, given that we have guys like Jordan, Slowman, and Herbert reporting on events who ARE IN THE KNOW and understand the vast diff between age group racing and pro racing, why do we continue to see age groupers even mentioned in the context of pro results?
Do they also have the same drafting rules?? In ironmans the pros usually have a 10 meter rule, AG’ers 7 I believe…That is Dev’s point, even if you start together, your rules may differ and cause a split in comparing times…
Fair enough Brian. If all athletes race under identical conditions then its OK. This however, is not the norm. Even if pros start with a 50 m headstart they should be listed in separate results.
Regardless a better reporting practice would to simply be to only list pro results. Good for an age grouper that suddenly got fast, but by only listing pro results we’re giving exposure to someone who took the effort to get a pro card and is theoretically under the out of competition WTC supported drug testing umbrella BEFORE the event (vs falling into it after they take their Kona/Clearwater slot).
Dev
I agree with you completely Dev, perhaps all those involved will see this and make that change. It makes sense to report their results seperately…
Dev, easy. If a person wants to have their time compared to the “pros”, have them get their pro license, and race with them a totally level playing field, like the same rules.
Fair enough Brian. If all athletes race under identical conditions then its OK. This however, is not the norm. Even if pros start with a 50 m headstart they should be listed in separate results.//
I wouldnt back down so easily Dev…Like I said, the pros and AG’eers have different drafting/positioning rules, and I remember one race where all started together, but he pros were sans wetsuits…ANd there was a lot of chatter about that race on how the AG’ers did so well in the swim as compared to the pros…HA!! Give me a wetsuit and I’ll show you some pro crushing of dreams…(-;
I hate it when Herbert/Editorial staff put an asterisk beside an age group name in the top 10, which literally seems to tell many readers, “look how strong this athete is…racing out of age group ranks and beating pros”.
I’m not disputing your main point really, but I never ‘read’ the asterisk that way. If anything, I read it as “Note: this athlete was competing under different conditions”, which is of course your point.
I have some friends who are pro women and in most “age group mass start events” I get to race around the top amateur women and see what goes on. My friends who are pro women compete under a completely different set of constaints.
I really hope, for example at Clearwater, they send off all the age group women waves off AFTER age group men have gone. The biggest “beneficiaries” of the presence of age group men are age group women.
There were a whack of age group women in Clearwater OUT BIKING Karin Thurig a multiple time UCI World’s and Olympic Medalist.
Sorry ladies, but your times are not in the same range as Ms. Thurig…not by a long shot. All those age group women out biking Michellie Jones…HELLO!!! Michellie is a an Olympic medalist and Kona winner…so we really think some age group woman is gonna out bike Michellie or Laura Bennet or Magalie Tyssere? Sorry…AINT HAPPENING!
Age group women riding 2:12 when Leanda Cave is riding 2:22? I pulled this out of the Clearwater athete tracker as a demonstration of how ridiculous age group women results can get.
ATHLETE RANK AGE/DIV SWIM BIKE RUN TOTAL 1 DIBENS, JULIE 53/48/53 34/PRO 00:23:48 02:07:15 01:24:37 03:59:33 2 ELLIS, MARY BETH 58/53/57 32/PRO 00:24:05 02:10:58 01:24:42 04:03:49 3 TISSEYRE, MAGALI 71/68/58 28/PRO 00:25:34 02:15:17 01:20:31 04:05:27 4 STEFFEN, CAROLINE 65/50/59 31/PRO 00:25:18 02:08:29 01:26:48 04:05:33 5 BENNETT, LAURA 57/69/61 34/PRO 00:24:03 02:17:06 01:22:42 04:07:39 6 JONES, MICHELLIE 72/67/63 40/PRO 00:25:35 02:15:22 01:23:16 04:08:17 7 GROFF, SARAH 48/66/64 28/PRO 00:23:41 02:16:07 01:25:56 04:09:34 8 STEVENS, AMANDA 51/60/65 32/PRO 00:23:45 02:13:30 01:32:03 04:13:16 9 THUERIG, KARIN 92/70/66 37/PRO 00:30:51 02:10:38 01:28:08 04:15:04 10 RUTHERFORD, GEORGIE 40/280/135 25/I 00:25:59 02:18:41 01:26:12 04:15:52 11 MCWILLIAM, CASSIE 227/357/147 43/I 00:29:14 02:17:25 01:25:01 04:16:58 12 GIANINNI, VANESSA 74/78/68 27/PRO 00:25:40 02:24:26 01:23:28 04:17:57 13 MORGAN, ASHLEY 300/210/169 21/I 00:29:59 02:13:02 01:30:40 04:18:30 14 COUCH, KELLY 70/76/69 32/PRO 00:25:33 02:23:19 01:25:32 04:18:53 15 ANDERSON, CHRISTINE 54/154/182 27/I 00:26:39 02:14:34 01:33:35 04:19:01 16 WILLIAMSON, KELLY 69/80/70 32/PRO 00:25:32 02:25:32 01:23:28 04:19:08 17 FARRELL, AMY 514/421/207 32/I 00:31:53 02:16:29 01:27:29 04:20:28 18 ESEFELD, KATRIN 291/194/216 27/I 00:29:54 02:12:26 01:33:41 04:20:53 19 CHIODINI, LAUREN 351/269/218 24/I 00:30:27 02:13:47 01:31:36 04:20:59 20 ANTHONY, CRYSTAL 916/432/226 29/I 00:35:20 02:12:54 01:28:03 04:21:21 21 ANDREWS, KRISTIN 621/414/249 28/I 00:32:48 02:15:22 01:29:23 04:22:46 22 EWERT, STEPHANIE 13/484/252 27/I 00:24:55 02:24:41 01:27:56 04:22:54 23 DANGELEIT, MARION 878/383/263 37/I 00:34:58 02:12:33 01:31:06 04:23:18 24 LUTTRELL, JANNALYN 60/144/268 28/I 00:26:45 02:13:10 01:37:57 04:23:38 25 WHALEN, LINDSEY 121/250/274 28/I 00:27:44 02:16:13 01:35:18 04:24:01 26 YNDESTAD, CATHY 66/361/276 31/I 00:26:48 02:20:29 01:32:16 04:24:02 27 MCLANE, MANDY 135/159/278 30/I 00:27:56 02:12:46 01:38:10 04:24:04 28 SMITH, KRISTIN 270/399/279 41/I 00:29:40 02:17:50 01:31:30 04:24:09 29 CAVE, LEANDA 56/72/73 31/PRO 00:24:01 02:22:37 01:33:06 04:24:16 30 JOHNSON, ASHLEY 614/417/286 28/I 00:32:42 02:14:48 01:30:46 04:24:27 31 ANDREWS, CARRIE 478/336/287 29/I 00:31:32 02:14:41 01:33:00 04:24:27 32 COTTER, MORGAN 46/166/292 37/I 00:26:18 02:15:05 01:37:45 04:24:33 33 ROLLINSON, AYESHA 67/85/74 32/PRO 00:25:28 02:28:29 01:25:44 04:24:42 34 RAKEL, KATHY 316/243/308 25/I 00:30:06 02:13:34 01:36:29 04:25:20 35 EGAN, CHARO 673/463/311 35/I 00:33:11 02:15:55 01:31:29 04:25:30 36 SAEMMLER, DANIELA 77/77/75 21/PRO 00:26:16 02:24:18 01:31:15 04:25:49 37 SHUTT, BETH 247/396/319 30/I 00:29:28 02:18:12 01:33:02 04:26:08 38 MAZER, SAMANTHA 301/512/334 24/I 00:29:59 02:20:38 01:31:28 04:26:48 39 TASTETS, PAMELA 75/79/77 28/PRO 00:25:42 02:24:43 01:32:10 04:26:48 40 BASSO, ANNE 85/83/78 26/PRO 00:27:37 02:24:47 01:29:27 04:26:50 41 RICHTER, MARIA 490/297/354 27/I 00:31:42 02:13:29 01:37:25 04:28:04 42 COLLONGE, JEANNE 76/84/79 22/PRO 00:26:13 02:27:18 01:29:43 04:28:06 43 CASEY, SUSAN 317/311/376 36/I 00:30:06 02:14:51 01:38:12 04:29:04 44 HART, ELLEN 648/662/377 51/I 00:33:00 02:20:17 01:29:24 04:29:09 45 GRIES, SUSANNE 675/680/380 33/I 00:33:12 02:20:19 01:29:31 04:29:12 46 KUSS, KRISTINE 461/607/395 41/I 00:31:22 02:19:54 01:30:37 04:29:42 47 LIND, ALLISON 752/660/403 28/I 00:33:46 02:20:31 01:30:36 04:30:05 48 KIDD, ANGELA 426/440/417 32/I 00:31:09 02:17:02 01:37:20 04:30:45 49 HARPER, DANIELLE 834/499/419 38/I 00:34:30 02:15:28 01:35:22 04:30:49 50 COSTELLO, ALLISON 447/551/429 28/I 00:31:17 02:19:23 01:34:19 04:31:14
why not? its neat when amateurs are up their with the pros.
let this one slide man
Monty, I agree, however, given that we have guys like Jordan, Slowman, and Herbert reporting on events who ARE IN THE KNOW and understand the vast diff between age group racing and pro racing, why do we continue to see age groupers even mentioned in the context of pro results?
its a harder race for an ager in my opinion, they start in a massive swim start with arms spacking goggles etc… then the bike has peopl all over the road, sure a small draft is there, but pros have cars and motorcycles, plus many races are with traffic. Why would he post something discrediting a great accomplishment. Pros should never get beat by an ager.
The point is that “They are not up there with the pros”. It’s literally like they cut the course to have a time similar to the pros, given that the legal drafting effect is so much different.
Show me the powerfile of any of the age group women that rode 2:12/2:13 in Clearwater and show me the powerfile of Michellie/Magalie/Laura…it’s almost like one group ran 21K and another group only had to run 17K.
Dev
Dev,
Who on earth is arguing about Clearwater - no kidding the AG bike results aren’t legit, why are you arguing this when NO ONE disagrees w/ you?
We’re talking about a 40yr old woman who managed to go 6th place at IMB which is a single wave start on a course NOT known for drafting & you’re cherry-picking results from arguably the biggest draft-fest in our sport to back your point.
Your whole point is that you can’t *compare *AG & pro results as it’s an apples/oranges race, but you’re making an apples/oranges comparison w/ CW/IMB.
Not sure why we mention the top-10 men and only the top-5 women on the race report…
Props to Ann Ciaverella for her 6th place OA (9:48) and 1st place amateur finish at IM Brazil… Closing with a 3:19 marathon!!!
Not bad for a woman who smoked 7 years ago.
Ann (and her husband Dave who beat Ken Glah to win the 45-49 AG at Brazil) are a terrific couple who not only train and race hard, but give TONS back to the Portland Triathlon community.
Chappe!
Puskas
Not sure it needed clarification but she was not 6th place overALL. 6th place overall women. Big difference.
But she is awesome with a time like that regardless. 
I’m using CW as an example of how twisted age group women results can get. I think I conceded your point about Brazil, and even then, if an age grouper is not racing with a pro card, they start the race under different out of competition testing constraints, so the rules “entering” the competition are different.
However, my point is the larger picture of the tendancy to compare age group women results to pro times, when the two race under completely different rules both before and during competition.
too bad, it is still fun to discuss. you’ll have to just unwad your panties =)
The point is that “They are not up there with the pros”. It’s literally like they cut the course to have a time similar to the pros, given that the legal drafting effect is so much different.
Show me the powerfile of any of the age group women that rode 2:12/2:13 in Clearwater and show me the powerfile of Michellie/Magalie/Laura…it’s almost like one group ran 21K and another group only had to run 17K.
Dev
Sure, say what you want.
While you and I may understand that the “ruleset” is different, when someone working the marketing department of a sponsored pro, sees the results, they can’t distinguish the difference.
Instead they think, “who is this joker that we are supporting being beaten by amateurs?”