Interval Training Q's

Triathlon Forum
1

On the advice of Klehner and some others I have started to incorporate intervals into my cycling. Yesterday I did a 2 x 20 interval session.

I’m curious about warming-up for something like this, as well as effort.

I warmed up for ~12 - 13 minutes, with a couple short bursts near the end to get the blood pumping, the rest was pretty low intensity. What’s a typical warm-up proceedure for this type of workout?

I then went into the first interval. I did the first 20 minutes at a goal cadence of 80 rpms. Legs burned like crazy, and I was at VT pretty much the whole time. I then took 2 minutes very easy, then went into the second one at a goal cadence of 100 rpms. I noticed on this interval that it was a lot harder to get my legs up to the 100 rpms (I typical ride at 90 - 95). In otherwords my power dropped a bit, which I expected. RPE was slightly lower on the second interval, and I wasn’t breathing quite as hard, but both hurt.

I think my LT is around 183 - 185 bpm, but I haven’t tested in a few months, so I could be off by a few beats. My avg HR for the first interval was 176 bpm, and the second was 175 bpm.

I’m not sure what types of efforts I should be putting out here. Where should my avg HR be in terms of my LT? It seems to me the first one should be a little low if I am not warmed up properly, but the second one should be within a few beats. I could be wrong though. Any help is appreciated. Is it to be expected that I can’t sustain my effort at LT for 20 minutes if I haven’t been doing any threshold work?

Another question, is it a good idea to do this at the different cadences like I did? Do you all mix them up as well?

Jack

2

I’m not sure what types of efforts I should be putting out here. Where should my avg HR be in terms of my LT?

Sorry I don’t have an answer for you, jack, especially about bike training. No doubt someone here can give you some scienctific info about LT and HR as it pertains to interval training.

But my question is, am I the only one here who just does intervals as hard as I can?

3

No, that’s a good point, and I feel like I did do them as hard as I could. But that is a little bit of a sticky explanation since if I went as hard as I could, I would burn out in 30 seconds to a minute. So, I’m aiming for as hard as I can sustain for 20 minutes, recover, and go as hard as I can for 20 minutes again.

While I put most of my faith in my RPE, I also want to make use of the technology I have, such as the HR monitor, to see if I was maybe sandbagging a little, or if I need more recovery before I attempt the workout again, etc. I’m just trying to gather data. Maybe I’m looking too much into it.

Effort was a bad word to use. I probably should have said performance instead of effort. I said effort since I feel that developing a higher pain tolerance is part of the reason of doing intervals.

4

While I put most of my faith in my RPE, I also want to make use of the technology I have, such as the HR monitor,

Hey, that’s cool, I wasn’t trying to dissuade you from using the tech stuff if you find it useful. It just sometimes seems that people get pretty wrapped around the axle about HR, LT, Zone4A, subsection 1, etc etc.

5

dr. coggan’s power training manual recommends doing efforts of this type between 95%-105% of your function threshold power. you can use your 40K TT effort as a fairly good approximation for function threshold power. i also do this workout as i find it very effective. only diff is i like to warm up for 30-35min. there is a link which describes this workout more accurately based on several measurement variables as well as giving a verbal description of what the effort should feel like; i just can’t seem to find it at the moment. good luck.

6

where should I be looking for the link?

7

http://mywebpage.netscape.com/rechung/wattage/coggan.pdf

here is the link. there is a table towards the back that gives a nice summary. also with regards to your cadence question. this point is highly debatable but personally i believe dr. coggan and his comments regarding specificity. simply put when i ride outside my cadence changes because of terrain. when i’m doing my 2x20’ i make sure the correct effort is achieved using the cadence i would normally race at…specificity. i’m not an expert and there is a lot of anecdotal evidence to support big gear low cadence efforts but most of the scientific stuff says big gear slow cadence efforts only help you improve power output at lower cadences and this doesn’t translate over to your race cadence. like i said this point is highly debatable, so do some research and figure out what works for you…for me it is specificity. hope that helps. good luck.

8

There’s lots of info out there (in books) about HR, watts, VO2Max, cadence… You can get tested, buy all the tech gear, keep logs and records… It can be fun for a while but ultimately makes the sport (aka hobby) seem more like work than fun.

You might find it just as beneficial to find a fast group to ride with and then just try to hang on without getting dropped. There’ll be plenty of sprints/intervals and it will be a lot more fun. You’ll probably push yourself harder riding with a group than you would by yourself.

9

From your HR, it would seem like you were below LT, yet the description you gave “legs burned like crazy” seems like you were at or above LT. It sounds like yor effort was higher than the “comfortably hard” description I hear a lot of a just sub-LT effort.

I dont know what it means, just pointing it out.

10

12-13 minutes is probably a bit short for a warmup. Maybe 10 minutes easy spinning, followed by 3-5 minutes of harder effort, followed by 3-5 minutes easy again, for a minimum.

These intervals are meant to raise your power at threshold (how much power you can maintain for about an hour). HR data is notoriously unreliable as a metric for judging effort; there’s a European pro team that looks like they’ll be giving up on HR and using power exclusively. You want to be able to maintain a consistent power for the duration of the intervals; the PE will rise as you go.

Trying to fix cadence in this workout is, in my opinion, the wrong thing to do. If you want to work on a particular cadence, just ride at that cadence. If you want to raise your LT, work on that and your body will choose a good cadence. All of my LT workouts are within a few RPMs of 100.

I would think that, by definition, your LT is that work level you can sustain for this workout. If you can’t, then your LT is lower than that level.

12

The purpose behind the (in)famous 2x20 workout is that there is great benefit in getting from 30-60 minutes of L4 intervals, with each interval at least 15 minutes each; 2x20 is a reasonable instance of this. The reason there is a break is for mental relief, not for “rest”. If you can do a straight 30 or 40 or 60 minutes at 91-105% of the power you can maintain for an hour, then do it. Otherwise, take a minute or two at most. On the road, do an interval, then turn around, drink some, then go back.

Right now, every Wednesday I and two training partners are doing a rolling 11.1mi out-and-back, full out TT with no break at the turnaround. I did this yesterday in 26:58 (~24.7mph) at 100% of my hour power. We may increase this to out-and-back-and-out-again, to get more like 40 minutes of L4. That’ll hurt even more than this does!

Here’s some info on the levels and the benefits of training at each: http://www.cyclingpeakssoftware.com/levels.html

13

what do you recommend for rest in betwixt the 2 20’s Ken?

I think that the rest should be as short as you can stand. Take enough time to get up the nerve to start the second one (it should hurt, after all). No need to rush. But, taking too much time merely prolongs the workout.

Some days, I do 2 minutes. Others, I need 5 or 8 because I lack motivation. If I take too long a rest break, I have been rumored to give up and go home before doing the second bout.

14

Jack, lots of good advice above, and I’ll just give a quick two cents.

Effort – forget HR. Use PE if you don’t have a power meter. Do each interval at a constant effort. Make the effort as high as you can, while staying constant throughout. These are very hard, but you should not fade at the end.

Time – Variety is nice. I mix up 5x8 and 3x12 with 2x20. If you’re keeping rest short, they’re all the same.

Warmup – I like 10 minutes of steady, and then several 1-3 minute bursts of very hard effort. Don’t be afraid to be sucking some air during your warmup. You’re fit, you’re powerful and you can handle it. Cool down, drink a little and hit the 20s.

Cadence – Race cadence, baby. Specificity. I turned off my cadence monitor for good this year. Among the smarter moves I’ve made. Let your legs tell you what cadence to ride, not your brain.

"Is it to be expected that I can’t sustain my effort at LT for 20 minutes if I haven’t been doing any threshold work? "

Ah, interesting question.

Julian’s Third Canon of Bike Training: “You are, by definition, always ready for threshold training.”

Why? Because of how we are defining it in the context of this workout: “The power you could hold in a one hour race.” If you’re not very fit, you can’t hold much power in a one-hour race, and so you won’t hold very much in a 2x20 workout. But – you can still do the workout! You just need to back off on the power so that you don’t fade.

If you are fading, it’s not because you are “not ready” – it’s simply because you went too hard (the same rule applies in racing).

15

jackattack,

I agree with Julian, forget HR and cadence. Let PE guide your effort if you don’t have a power meter and let your legs determine your cadence.

Do the intervals at a power/PE that your current fitness allows not what you would like or think you should be able to do. Don’t fade.

Increase the effort of the 2x20’s when you have a performance improvement; faster race time or field test. Don’t try to better your time each time out. Adaptations take time.