As I struggle to find the right balance here in hot and humid NC, I found this article pretty interesting. I feel like I’m at the opposite end of the spectrum from the author, and also that running a fast marathon after a 112mi bike is a science project in its own right that is beyond the scope of this article.
Who’s got the magic bullet for hot and humid long course racing?
Eric
https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/you-dont-need-sports-drinks-to-stay-hydrated/?ex_cid=538twitter
Maybe interesting arguments, but shoddy science writing.
I mostly can’t get past the journalist’s error leaping to the conclusion that heavy-handed Gatorade marketing made people drink so much sports drink that they suffered hyponatremia. But we see hyponatremia when people drink too much water and/or consume too little sodium.
Also, she’s calling out research funded by Gatorade without disclosing her counter-argument is… umm… research funded by Crossfit, Inc.
But her dog hasn’t died on a run yet, so hey, drink to thirst?
I don’t have a dog in this fight regarding the hydration science, but I’m going to question your interpretation of what the person wrote.
I saw no leap from Gatorade to hyponatremia. That subject was the third vignette, and separate from the first two and more a commentary on the numerous water stops at marathons and not electrolyte marketing.
Also not seeing the author’s connection to Crossfit.
Eric
Maybe interesting arguments, but shoddy science writing.
I mostly can’t get past the journalist’s error leaping to the conclusion that heavy-handed Gatorade marketing made people drink so much sports drink that they suffered hyponatremia. But we see hyponatremia when people drink too much water and/or consume too little sodium.
Also, she’s calling out research funded by Gatorade without disclosing her counter-argument is… umm… research funded by Crossfit, Inc.
But her dog hasn’t died on a run yet, so hey, drink to thirst?
Sports drink for nutritional reasons is silly.
The primary purpose of Gatorade is to make it easy to match beverage color to bicycles and/or kit. They even make a nice off-celeste for my gravel bike:
No dog either - this is fun science to debate. I just think this particular writer is being manipulative.
She just doesn’t draw a clear conclusion between exactly what the hyponatremia sufferers drank and their symptoms. So, the way I read it, because it follows the Gatorade coverage, I think it implies they were consuming too much sports drink when I would guess they were drinking straight water.
The Crossfit affiliation is the work of the hyponatremia researcher she quotes: Tamara Hew-Butler, DPM, PhD.
I am NOT claiming all industry-funded research is invalid, just that it’s unfair to criticize the ACSM consensus because they accept Gatorade dollars without disclosing that the other side of the coin is research funded by another huge for-profit.
I think her input for the hyponatremia was all the water stops on marathon courses, particularly the Comrades Marathon in SA.
No dog either - this is fun science to debate. I just think this particular writer is being manipulative.
She just doesn’t draw a clear conclusion between exactly what the hyponatremia sufferers drank and their symptoms. So, the way I read it, because it follows the Gatorade coverage, I think it implies they were consuming too much sports drink when I would guess they were drinking straight water.
The Crossfit affiliation is the work of the hyponatremia researcher she quotes: Tamara Hew-Butler, DPM, PhD.
I am NOT claiming all industry-funded research is invalid, just that it’s unfair to criticize the ACSM consensus because they accept Gatorade dollars without disclosing that the other side of the coin is research funded by another huge for-profit.
I think her input for the hyponatremia was all the water stops on marathon courses, particularly the Comrades Marathon in SA.
No dog either - this is fun science to debate. I just think this particular writer is being manipulative.
She just doesn’t draw a clear conclusion between exactly what the hyponatremia sufferers drank and their symptoms. So, the way I read it, because it follows the Gatorade coverage, I think it implies they were consuming too much sports drink when I would guess they were drinking straight water.
The Crossfit affiliation is the work of the hyponatremia researcher she quotes: Tamara Hew-Butler, DPM, PhD.
I am NOT claiming all industry-funded research is invalid, just that it’s unfair to criticize the ACSM consensus because they accept Gatorade dollars without disclosing that the other side of the coin is research funded by another huge for-profit.
As a Scientist who has authored many peer reviewed papers, I can’t stomach journalists that call themselves “expertsâ€.
Ross Tucker at the Science of Sport did an excellent series on this topic several years ago. He breaks down the losses of water and sodium to show that drinking water to thirst is a great hydration strategy and that the electrolytes provided by sports drinks are moot in the grand scheme of things. Lots of good stuff a that site.
https://sportsscientists.com/2007/11/sports-drinks-sweat-and-electrolytes/
Ross tucker is an authority in sport science in SA alongside Tim noakes, and although colleagues they don’t agree on all the nutrition fronts however the hydration one they do. Noakes has a good book called challenging beliefs and it has plenty of peer reviewed science to back up his claims.
Ross Tucker at the Science of Sport did an excellent series on this topic several years ago. He breaks down the losses of water and sodium to show that drinking water to thirst is a great hydration strategy and that the electrolytes provided by sports drinks are moot in the grand scheme of things. Lots of good stuff a that site.
https://sportsscientists.com/...at-and-electrolytes/
Very helpful, thank you. Much of my dehydration could be the result of post exercise behavior when I don’t drink enough to replace what I lost, as it’s hard to drink what one loses while working out.
“But let’s simplify this as much as possible – ALL YOU NEED TO DO IS LISTEN TO YOUR BODY AND YOU WILL BE FINE. In otherwords:”
**If you are thirsty, then drink!****If you are not thirsty, then don’t drink!**Don’t waste money on salt tablets – you don’t need them!
has she characterized herself as an expert?
I think her input for the hyponatremia was all the water stops on marathon courses, particularly the Comrades Marathon in SA.
No dog either - this is fun science to debate. I just think this particular writer is being manipulative.
She just doesn’t draw a clear conclusion between exactly what the hyponatremia sufferers drank and their symptoms. So, the way I read it, because it follows the Gatorade coverage, I think it implies they were consuming too much sports drink when I would guess they were drinking straight water.
The Crossfit affiliation is the work of the hyponatremia researcher she quotes: Tamara Hew-Butler, DPM, PhD.
I am NOT claiming all industry-funded research is invalid, just that it’s unfair to criticize the ACSM consensus because they accept Gatorade dollars without disclosing that the other side of the coin is research funded by another huge for-profit.
As a Scientist who has authored many peer reviewed papers, I can’t stomach journalists that call themselves “expertsâ€.
Here’s the problem with these types of articles(stealth quackery), they assume everyone’s bodies work the same way. I can tell you that they do not, and the range of what works is so wide, you could drive a truck through it. I’ve know athletes who were the best in the world, and drank when thirsty. those same athletes later in their careers started to take salt tablets and other salt laden drinks.
And then there are the multitude of athletes that take anywhere from 20 to 40+ salt tabs during Kona, or the equalevent in custom salt drinks. Forgot about random studies done in labs and such, we have the greatest study ever done, and over the past 40+ years. People who poo poo salts and sports drinks are just the lucky folks that can get along without them, for now at least. Several N=1 stories from Noakes on his enlightenment n the article, before he seemingly stoked the drink only water craze that killed all those runners and endurance athletes.
If you see diet or race nutrition articles from experts that propose a certain way to do it, take it with a grain of salt…
If you see diet or race nutrition articles from experts that propose a certain way to do it, take it with a grain of salt…
that’s the thesis of this person’s article… she posits that our received wisdom is based on fallacies that have their origin in the Gatorade and electrolyte marketing phenomena and other so-called “experts” that have since been debunked or placed too much emphasis on small sample size studies.
There doesn’t seem to be a dearth of studies beyond 2 hours and none with untrained athletes.
http://yourontarioresearch.ca/team-rm/2015/stephen-cheung/ This seems to be the base study.
The article you linked has a lot of holes with some strange associations and blending of different studies to reach a conclusion the author obviously decided on before they wrote the article.
There doesn’t seem to be a dearth of studies beyond 2 hours and none with untrained athletes.
http://yourontarioresearch.ca/...2015/stephen-cheung/ This seems to be the base study.
The article you linked has a lot of holes with some strange associations and blending of different studies to reach a conclusion the author obviously decided on before they wrote the article.
People also need to keep in mind a couple of other things when they’re deciding what to make of this.
Blood sodium values are NOT levels. They are a ratio of sodium to volume. You can have low levels of sodium with “normal” values. Likewise, you can have low values (hyponatremia) with varying levels of sodium. That’s the first step in evaluating hyponatremia and determining appropriate treatment.
As mentioned, there are complex mechanisms in place for maintaining homeostasis. Sodium values will generally remain in the “normal” range unless acted upon by a significant overpowering mechanism. Sometimes that’s pathology. Sometimes it’s over/underhydrating.
Some of those mechanisms include shifting of water and electrolytes from intra to extracellular (cells into the bloodstream in this case) and vice versa depending on needs. There is absolutely a limit to this, and it cannot continue indefinitely in one direction.
You absolutely lose sodium when you sweat. It was either in the linked article or another article from the author that stated that you can’t and cited steady blood sodium values as evidence of this. This is an incorrect assertion based on what I said in #1.
I don’t see studies backing “drink to thirst” for 10+ hour events. IMHO the homeostatic mechanisms likely break down during events of that length and that some form of electrolytes seems necessary. Probably not as much as is pushed by supplement companies however.
None of this changes the issues with overhydrating and subsequent dilutional hyponatremia. Overdrinking is still a potential issue.
** based on fallacies that have their origin in the Gatorade and electrolyte marketing phenomena //**
But that’s just it, their premise is not fallacies, they were right in their thoughts that for endurance events, some salt and sugar would be beneficial. Lots of people do quite well on Gatorade, or the many like products out there. Are they the best for you, you have to test and decide. Do most sports that take less than 2 hours need them, probably not. But I have been coming from a 10 hour or so race since 1979, and Bill Gookin was revolutionary when he put salt into a drink back then. It worked then, and the numerous refinements and choices have only given you all some super choices for your individual needs.
I take salt stix and as far as I know, they dont recommend any real doses for ironman type races. There are the basic take one an hour or whatever, but since most people take a lot more, it falls on them to find the right mixture. Like I said, I know some very smart and astute ironman champions that take up to 40 of those during a race. Just go back and see what some of them have posted over the years on the ask me anything threads. It is neither hype or marketing that gets folks that train 30 to 40 hours a week to choose supplements for races and training. They are a living decades long experiments on what works, and what doesn’t. And although you can fine many doing very similar nutrition plans, there is still a wide range across the board of successful athletes and performances…
Just because Gatorade went overboard and hocked their product to a large % of people out there that dont need it, does not mean it wasnt right for us on the fringe. Throwing the baby out with the bath water I believe they call it…
There doesn’t seem to be a dearth of studies beyond 2 hours and none with untrained athletes.
http://yourontarioresearch.ca/...2015/stephen-cheung/ This seems to be the base study.
The article you linked has a lot of holes with some strange associations and blending of different studies to reach a conclusion the author obviously decided on before they wrote the article.
People also need to keep in mind a couple of other things when they’re deciding what to make of this.
Blood sodium values are NOT levels. They are a ratio of sodium to volume. You can have low levels of sodium with “normal” values. Likewise, you can have low values (hyponatremia) with varying levels of sodium. That’s the first step in evaluating hyponatremia and determining appropriate treatment.
As mentioned, there are complex mechanisms in place for maintaining homeostasis. Sodium values will generally remain in the “normal” range unless acted upon by a significant overpowering mechanism. Sometimes that’s pathology. Sometimes it’s over/underhydrating.
Some of those mechanisms include shifting of water and electrolytes from intra to extracellular (cells into the bloodstream in this case) and vice versa depending on needs. ***There is absolutely a limit to this, and it cannot continue indefinitely in one direction. ***
You absolutely lose sodium when you sweat. It was either in the linked article or another article from the author that stated that you can’t and cited steady blood sodium values as evidence of this. This is an incorrect assertion based on what I said in #1.
I don’t see studies backing “drink to thirst” for 10+ hour events. IMHO the homeostatic mechanisms likely break down during events of that length and that some form of electrolytes seems necessary. Probably not as much as is pushed by supplement companies however.
None of this changes the issues with overhydrating and subsequent dilutional hyponatremia. Overdrinking is still a potential issue.
^^This. All of this.
Hyponatremia is obviously bad news. But, dehydration at the levels seen at the end of a competitive Ironman can be equally bad (just ask Chris Legh!).
Avoiding both ends of the spectrum is far too important to not go into a long race without a (well rehearsed) plan.
In my opinion, “drink to thirst” is so vague that it is flat out dangerous when applied in the context of a competitive athlete over an 8+ hour race.
I wrote some more detail in this post (https://www.alancouzens.com/blog/hyponatremia.html) after listening to Tim Noakes and Phil Maffetone advocating “Drink to thirst” in this Endurance Planet podcast (https://www.enduranceplanet.com/...h-matters-above-all/) Well worth a listen.
Overall, I would agree completely with all points in the quote above, especially the fact that Ironman challenges your normal ‘homeostatic mechanisms’ in a way that shorter events don’t. I would also agree with Monty that, based on the individual differences that I’ve seen when sweat testing athletes, that electrolyte and hydration needs are incredibly individual and should be tested prior to competing in long, hot races.