And yet again, Ari Klau’s performance goals is actually irrelevant to the argument above.
AGers want to do as best as possible. But they don’t ride as many hours as pro/elites. So if you have 5 hrs to train a bike, of which 3-5 are going to be indoors, it’s not a stretch to think that you’re leaving watts on the table on race day if you spend all those 3-5 indoor hours in this comfy upright position, and then on race day you’re aero.
I’d definitely argue that that AGer should be spending as much time as possible aero with those 5 hours of bike training. (A lot of AGers do even less per week than that). Or if they don’t, prepare for some sitting up and not pumping as much watts out on race day as if they had buckled down and did that aero training indoors. And no, it’s not a big ask to be aero indoors, I’ve done it for years and years.
It’s amazing to me I’m actually having to say this is a reasonable expectation, it’s like blindingly obvious.
No, I want to hear what Desertdude has to say about exxxviii’s aero vs nonaero difficulties. You just keep inserting yourself into the conversation unnecessarily and swearing unncessarily.
Not a single poster here, including myself, has ever mentioned, 'athletes who are fine with lesser demands of competition’ except yourself. We’re all under the assumption everyone wants to go as fast as possible within their life/resource constraints. Asking someone to ride aero compared to upright on their trainer is NOT an hard ask here. I’d actually question any coach who thinks AGers can spend a lot of their 5hrs of bike training per week upright and tell them they’ll be hitting their capacity for that training on race day. Which is the exact same thing I’ve been pointing out on this thread,
Might as well answer him then - are you confident exxiii is not leaving any watts on the table if he’s barely 5 mins in aero indoors, but aero on race day? He says he’s comfortable in 60 miles so that part seems covered, but are you confident he’s not leaving watts on the table by not training in his race position? Let’s assume he’s doing significant indoor training.
I’ll say my side - I think he could definitely be potentially leaving some watts out there on race day. Even if he’s comfortable with 60 miles outdoors, I suspect he’d be more comfortable, and also be able to generate more power if he’s done his indoor interval work in aero, just like race day.
I already gave him my thoughts on his situation. I think in your eagerness to “argue” you likely failed to read or understand it.
In fact I probaly know why he’s not as comfortable in the indoor setting. Because *most people HATE indoor riding, and thus need some stimulus to keep them going. And that’s not a bad thing, if watching Netflix or Zwift gets you on that bike for those 5 hours a week…by god then we just deal with the “discomfort” caused by his head position in order to watch that. Because if the alternative is staring at a blank wall in the best aero position causes him to hate training and come to outdoors in worse fitness…we’ve failed. Especially for AG athletes. Sometimes we just need to stop over thinking it.
You win with whatever come back you want. Seriously you win, I and all of us lose.
That’s fair. I’d agree that’s a possibility. I’d get one of those adjustable desks or a lower desk and solve that ASAP if that’s the case though. Honestly, that seems like such an obvious possibility that I’d have assumed he would have tried it already, but that’s possible.
You still haven’t mentioned if he’s not leaving watts on the table by training upright indoors compared to as if he was in aero either.
That’s not how physiology works. If you’re riding vo2 indoors and breathing super hard and your HR is at 98% of max mission accomplished and who gives a shit what position your riding.
As Brooks said 1 million times and which you refuse to listen to 1 million times: Do the work and the results will follow.
@BDoughtie kill me…NOW, please. Also I just left you a VM
Brooks said it best - Don’t over think it, just do the work, make the gains. I’d rather increase my ability to 88% of my threshold watts when I raced vs worrying about the aero position and only being able to hold 84% when I raced.
There was a pro who used to do winters here in Tucson, only brought his road bike. Went back to Canada a week or so before Wildflower, got his TT bike out of the closet then turned in the fastest bike split & won the race. Fitness is fitness no matter what Lightheir will tell you. There have been years where I rode my TT/Tri bike < 15x and that never stopped me from ripping off 56min 40ks or 57-58 min oly tris and then running well.
It could. My guess is you’d run several cm’s more stack maybe a bit less reach, maybe a steeper STA
You can’t really, unless you move the table a foot or so further away from the bike. Then that positions my stuff too far away. The stand is adjustable and the underside must be above the extension tips to be in a usable location. I would have to lower the stand about 3", and then I could roll it under the extensions, but the extensions would interfere with anything on the stand. So, I just live with it.
Like @stringcheese above, I am an FOP cyclist in my AG and ride about the same watts inside as outside. Further, I can ride outside with my 90/disc combo in 20 MPH side gusts with no issues. With no wind, I can ride the white painted lane line for miles in aero without drifting off the paint. So, I am beginning to think that training in aero inside has no correlation with my outside performance.
This is easing me toward getting a smart bike setup and stop worrying about mimicking my tri bike position.
Yes, this helps a lot. I am spending a crapton on a new bike, and I would kind of like to not have to bolt it to my trainer for 100% of my training. I may start researching the smart bikes and ditch the Neo.
Ha - it’s not just me saying that to race in aero you gotta train in aero. LOTS of coaches, and a bunch of pros like Ari now going all-in on this. (I think Lionel also trains in aero mostly now?) Apparently that’s not true!
Someone should tell all these AGers (and even LS) who are busting their butt in aero on the trainer all winter that they can just ride upright and it’ll be completely fine - that’s a big change to a lot of folks.
It’s start quite hard for me to believe an AGer who rides 5 hrs indoors/wk only upright can expect minimal dropoff in a race in aero position with no aero practice, but apparently that’s what you guys are saying. I do think pros and strong riders with lots of experience can pull this off more readily, but I’m pretty skeptical that a MOP non-diehard AGer can hold that aero well on race day with essentially no aero practice, like from just riding indoors.
Almost worthy of a new thread in itself, in my opinion. ‘Forget about bothering with training aero indoors, there’s no benefit’.
We all still do that. Just not on our structured training days. For me at least, I’ll still get a lot more fun and satisfaction out of hammering hills and roads up and down than just easy cruising a sunrise, even though that’s pretty nice in itself!
Zwift bike? I say this because I almost spent nearly $3k on a Stages Indoor Smartbike several years ago, and I’m glad it was dead on arrival (had to be sent back) since not only did they promptly go out of business, but the technology seems to advance so much every few years that things get better, cheaper.
I love the Zwift virtual shifting, great stuff. Amazingly useful for erg mode, actually. I think it makes erg mode what it was meant to be - you have a watt target but if you can just it a few% depending on how you feel for the day, in real time.
Not sure why you want to die on this hill. Are you aware that many of the top pros and even top AGs don’t do all their indoor riding in aero? You keep quoting Klau, no disrespect towards the guy as he is a decent pro, but he is high third tier, low end second tier at best. Just to say that he is still trying to figure out the sport as a pro.
Nobody is saying that you don’t need to spend some time in race position but spending all your indoor time in aero is unnecessary and likely counterproductive for stuff such as VO2.
Actually that’s pretty much EXACTLY what they are saying. Which is why I’m surprised. Outside of here, all I hear from coaching advice online is ride aero as much as possible. I’m certainly NOT hearing a chorus of ‘don’t worry about aero indoors at all.’
Nobody above except me has even suggested a minimum time needed to be spent in aero indoors so that you can expect to ride well outdoors.
This would all make a lot more sense if the coaches here were saying ‘well, make sure you ride at least 2 hrs/wk or so indoors at aero’ or even ‘make sure you do some intervals in aero’ and then you can expect to have a good race day in aero. But I’m not even hearing that. Just ‘do the fitness work, don’t work about your neck/back, it’ll all be fine.’ Maybe it will be, but I don’t think it’s unreasonable to ask if you’re coming from an all-indoors winter, if your neck/back will be ready for an optimal aero race day performance even if your legs/butt are from all that indoor training.
But, hey, I actually hope it’s true - I would LOVE to just stop doing any aero training indoors and just do it all upright! As well for note, I’m not an extremist saying you should 100% aero - but I’m not against that either. I just know for myself (and from what those other coaches are also recommending) that I’ll have a much better transition to outdoor aero riding the more indoor aero position riding I do. It doesn’t have to be 100%, or even 75% in my case, but it certainly can’t be like 0-10% and expect to out and ride 3 hrs aero nonstop.
If that’s what you took from all this info I actually feel sorry for you at this point. I’ve basically said if your aero fit is good for outdoors and your hitting your numbers you just don’t need to be 100% indoor aero focused which is what your beating the drum on endlessly about.
Mainly that demands of competition should drive where your at. I just dont think you need to be 100% aero indoor focused to achieve that. If other coaches or AG athletes like yourself disagree…cool.
I would actually think the # of coaches who coach in “100% aero for 100% of indoor riding” would likely be way in the super minority; regardless of the number of coaches you listen to.
