I’m looking for advice on including Power Cranks in my marathon training. Here’s a typical week off Hal Higdon’s Advanced II plan:
M: 3 mi easy
T: 5 x hill
W: 4 mi easy
T: 40 min tempo
F: rest
S: 8 mi race pace
S: 16 run
I know I can substitute Power Crank rides for Mon and Wed. I’m trying to qualify for Boston ~ 3:15. Can I substitute more Power Crank rides? Thanks.
I don’t buy the “replace running with powercranks”. I’m a powercrank user myself. The race is done on the run and running shoes, not with cycling shoes and PC’s. You need to do the real running mileage. You can’t fake 26 miles without running proper mileage in training as you have to get your quads accustomed to pounding the ashphalt. Running is a “blue collar sport”. You need to work hard and take no shortcuts. No designer tools and programs can replace the requisite basic mileage requirements when it comes to marathon.
You can ADD PC rides to your marathon program. This will give you more aerobic volume and directly work the hip flexors and hamstrings that you use for running. Add 5 hours of PC riding to the marathon program and you will be fine. You should add the PC ride to your hard days and just run easy on your easy days. Do the PC ride as your second run of the day, or you can add a short 30 min PC ride before your run to warm up your legs. I found that worked really well. On race day, you’ll find you can “last longer” before the wheels fall off.
Hope this helps and good luck with your qualifer !
Dev
I don’t think I would substitute PC’s for your easy days workout. You still need the easy days.
However I do believe you could substitute PC’s (or regular riding) for SOME of the running. I’ve run a respectable marathon on 2 days a week running with lots of biking. But to do really well, you should be hitting the pavement at least 3 to 4 days a week.
Preloading your runs with a PC session is a great idea. I believe a 1.5-hour ride / 2-hour run is just as good as a 3-hour run, but a whole lot easier to recover from.
Good luck.
“It is better to just strike a straight blow with a crooked stick than to spend your whole life trying to straighten the damn thing out!” (Bill Oncken)
I agree with Jason that your easy days should be easy…but, if you are adapted well to PowerCranks, you can have an easy day on PC’s…easier on your legs than running anyway. I also like Jason’s view to pre-load some harder days with PC work…probably post-load with them, too…especially if you really beat your legs up on some big downhills that day.
Paul is correct, too…you have to adapt to the shock of running…specificity and all that. I’m nowhere near the runner Paul is, but, I can run a circa 1:30 half with no runs over 8 miles and only about 16 miles total running per week if I’m on PC’s regularly. I don’t think I’ve ever run more than about 25 miles/week. I also don’t do many running races. I’m also sort of older, so I tend to try and keep running mileage down for wear and tear reasons.
I’ve currently upped my run mileage to about the maximum for me in preparation for an IM, and my legs are starting to ache some, so, I’ll keep the running mileage down and PC-it a lot until the achiness subsides before I do another long run…Oh, and long runs are all I do for this venture…by “long” I mean 8-10 miles fairly hard, but at an even split the entire time. I probably will do one 18 miler next week just to feel that, but, if my legs are hurting, I’ll PC part of that 18 miler!
Certainly isn’t a scientifically-based rousing recommendation…but, it’s been serving me well…set a PR in a 5K a couple of weeks ago with nothing much more than normal triathlon training and more PC work…I certainly haven’t been practicing running that fast! I don’t know how much run benefit comes from PC’ing, but, at least in my personal results in shorter distances (1/2 marathon and shorter), PC training has been associated with much better running race times, as well as run splits in a triathlon.
It is not clear what is optimum yet. I think it may depend upon 3 things, how well adapted to your PC’s you are and how many miles of running base you have and how often you run a marathon. If you have a really extensive run base in yur legs then you may be able to cut back more. If you only run an occasional marathon you can probably cut back more, and if you have an extensive PC base, you can probably cut back more.
I see no reason not to do your easy days on the PC’s if you are adapted to the PC’s.
I believe that most people will optimize at about 50% of their training on the PC’s and about 25-30 miles a week running. However, that is a big fat guess.
Let us know what you end up doing and how you end up running. As we get more and more data we will be able to give better advice.
Frank
Unless you are capable of running a marathon in sub 3 hours on just running, I would say no. Crosstraining for a marathon can keep you from losing fitness, but it will not improve your running times. If running 3:15 is an effort for you, you have to focus on the running. Your program hits all areas, but lacks volume. If you truely want to RACE a marathon, you need to put in 60-75 miles a week MINUIMUM!!! 35-50 will get you through it, but unless you have some natural talent at running, I’ve got to do the mileage. Yes at first, your legs will ache, but it will pass. On your key days, get some volume in with long warm ups and cool down i.e.; 2wu,8mile marathon pace, 2cd=12 miles for the day. Also, you have to get in some 20 milers working your last 4-5 toward your marathon pace. Your T,TH,SA workouts should equal 10-12 miles then 18-20 on sunday with a very easy 5 on W,F. There you go…60 miles. Every third week drop to 40 for recovery. I have coached many marathoners with good results as soon as I convinced them that there is no substitute for volume. If you have any questions on marathon training, I would be glad to answer them. Now, if my running would only cross over to me being a better swimmer…
One more thing,
If using the PC’s to concentrate on the marathon you are not going to use them the same as if concentrating on the bike. Forget the power and concentrate on riding at running cadence. Get the high cadence endurance up. It is unlikely those efforts will be on your “easy” days.
Those here who think running speed comes only from high running volume are locked into the “more is better” school of training. That may work for some (the natural runners perhaps) but it doesn’t work for everyone. If doing more gets you injured, you won’t go faster, just ask Steve Larsen who ran a sub 3 hr on less than 30 miles per week base in his first ever marathon and never equalled it after that when is training mileage was substantially more. Further, in my younger days i easily had 60 mile per week base and never came close to 3 hours. I now know, form is REALLY important.
Frank
Just wondering, Brian, have you trained on PC’s and had no running improvements associated with doing so?
Frank, I think the point made by another poster above was that if you want to run a marathon well, that means you have to do volume . The volume will make sure that you don’t slow down. Speedwork will make sure that you go fast, but it is useless to go fast if you don’t have the endurance and blow up.
So my recommendation
Do the volume first
Add the speedwork
Hold the volume and speedwork and ADD PC based high RPM bike training to the run program. Many run programs are in the range of 60-75 miles per week. I find that that high RPM PC riding actually supplements the speedwork.
60-75 miles per week is barely 9 hours a week of endurance training and in my view insufficient for for anyone wanting to go sub 3 for example. Piling on 5 more hours of PC riding puts you at around 13-14 hours a week, which in my view is the optimal volume for any race of around three hours. Elite runners running 100-120 miles a week are actually doing around that amount of training. The rest of us just cannot handle that volume of running, thus the 100K of running (62 miles), plus 5 hour of PC riding and you now have the perfect mix.
Let me throw this in here as a 2:43 marathoner. Powercranks will help with the leg lift and “float” or concentric muscle action part of the running equation. They will not help with the eccentric “deceleration” where you have to absorb your body weight with each stride. This adds up to 50% of the running equation, there is no way to train this but with running itself. I could see powercrank use during early preparation, but you really need to get out there and work the miles.
I found my best results from minimum slow running, even my long runs I would divide into 1/3’s. 1/3 at below marathon pace, 1/3 at marathon pace and 1/3 at slightly above marathon pace. This enabled me to produce negative splits on all my best marathon times.
Paul and Mad Aussie have some good comments. I do agree that easy high rpm spinning helps cadence for running. Speedwork is not really necessay. Long intervals at marathon pace or half marathon pace are the most important i.e. 3x3 miles at MP or 3x2 at half marathon pace this improves ability to hold pace for long periods…known as STAMINA. I know too many runners cranking out 2:20 800’s while i am doing my 3x2 milers , and I kick there butts in 5k-marathons because yes, they are fast, but they have no stamina to carry that speed out over several miles. I would say 90% of runners ignore tempo and marathon pace runs and the results show. That the great thing about triathlon…IT"S about STAMINA. As for the earlier comment, “more is better” …Well??? Yeah, to a point 60-75 miles than there is a point of deminishing return. Its tiring hearing about people trying to get by on the minuimum. If you go back 20 years, many runners ran over 100 a week and there was incredible depth in marathons. Volume can have its place i.e establishing better feel for the water for swimming, becoming one with the bike for cycling, obtaining relaxation and form for running. O.K I am starting to ramble…Best of luck in your training…
Dev,
I didn’t say that one could train without any running volume. And you don’t specify what you mean by “volume” (do the volume first).
PC’s improve form and technique. Why on earth would someone want to "do the volume first, then add speedwork (all the time ignoring form), then add PC’s. Makes no sense to me if someone has PC’s. One should work on all the elements necessary from the get-go, if they can.
The question is, in my mind, is what is the proper combination of PC work and running to optimize results. I think it is clear that one doesn’t need as much running mileage to optimize results as before. Question is, how much is optimum. I personally think 30 miles a week running will be optimal for most to train for the occasional marathon (with appropariate PC work added to that base). Perhaps an elite may want to do 40-60, but the days of 100 mile weeks (or more) should be through.
easamarathon writes “I do agree that easy high rpm spinning helps cadence for running.”
Easa, Apparently you have never ridden a pair of PC’s. There is no such thing as “easy high rpm spinning” on PC’s.
Yes sir, You are correct. I don’t have a clue what PC’s are…I am still fairly new to the sport of triathlon, so I am not familar with all the widgets and gadgets. This sport is definitely exspensive. Cheers.
Seriously Frank, do you still believe that after much
continuous intensive training with PC’s, you can
increase your power output by 40 %. Is anyone
carrying out a study at the present time in this area
of PC research.
Yes, i do (at least for the typical user) and yes, they are. Last week had another world record at the HPV trials at Battle Mountain Nevada, Ellen van Vugt went over 66 mph (http://www.recumbents.com/contribute/results.htm).
BTW, just heard yesterday there is a study we didn’t know about apparently out of the Mapei Center in Italy. If I find out more about this I will surely let you guys know so you can tear it apart for its design and conclusions.
Frank, the only reason why I said do the run miles first and then add PC miles to the total is because it is tough to ramp both running and PC biking at the same time. I do agree they help with form (the “float” or front of the body component of the stride) so some PC riding early as well as building the run miles is OK. But if you are fried from running and PC riding you aren’t helping yourself from a periodization perspective. I truly believe that there is no shortcut around the 60-75 mile weeks. To some extent, you still need to do them even if you are supplementing with PCs, but you can likely get by with less of these larger run volume weeks. I do agree that 100 mile weeks are useless for you citizen racer trying to break 3:20, 3:10, 3:00 or 2:50, but I doubt that most on the cusp of going sub 3:10 , sub 3:00 or sub 2:50 are going to pull it off with only 30 miles per week, unless they are riding PC’s to the tune of at least 10-15 hours a week, to get the required aerobic volume. In 1994, I did go 2:57 on 40K per week of runninig, but I was also XC skiing 150K per week, so I had some solid volume and my ‘compression muscles’ used upon impact in running were well trained, something you don’t get from PC’s. I’m still not totally sold that the muscle groups that absorb the impact or landing in running are sufficiently trained in a high PC-low run volume program. Perhaps I am wrong.
I’m doing a marathon in a couple of weeks mainly to try and get a Boston qual time. I’m doing this marathon mainly of half Ironman tri training (~40 miles per week of running). I’m not shooting for any PB’s just a qual time (3:15). I have not been using my PCs due to bike related issues, but now I do have a spare bike to use my PCs on and I’ll be bike commuting on the PC bike to supplement my running.
In the event that I qualify for Boston, I will be using a program of high XC ski mileage (~100-150 K pre week, or 6-10 hours), moderate run mileage (30-60 miles per week) and PC riding in Mar and April as the snow starts to melt away and I replace the skis with PC biking. I’ll let you know how it works.
dev
In the event that I qualify for Boston, I will be using a program of high XC ski mileage (~100-150 K pre week, or 6-10 hours), moderate run mileage (30-60 miles per week) and PC riding in Mar and April as the snow starts to melt away and I replace the skis with PC biking. I’ll let you know how it works.
dev
In XC skiing could you give a rough estimate of what
percentage of overall power comes from the arms.
Dev, you are correct on the impact part of marathon training. For example, I have been averaging about 35 miles running, 150 cycling. Times have been good for track, tempo and the long runs. Friday, for the first time in 3 years, I did a 12 miler in the Santa Cruz Mountains. 5 miles up, 5 miles down. Cycling definitely helps my up hill running with the increased quad stength, Oh…but the down hill. My high fitness level couldn’t save me from the downhill impact of running, which is equivalant to how one would feel in the late stages of a marathon. Saturday, I was barely able to walk, though I have been training consistently for 3 months. This is why I am a firm believer that hills are a very important part of marathon training. Learning how to handle the last 10k of a marathon is the difference between a competitive runner and a competitive marathoner. This is why you’ll see 31 min 10k guys run 2:50 for a marathon and marathoner, who runs a 33 min 10k, crank out a 2:25. Oh by the way, where can I find out more infor on this PC thing. What is it?
pefection, there are no ‘wattage’ geeks in XC skiing. Consider the sport a ‘watt geek’ free zone :-). The question is somewhat meaningless in the sense that it depends on the technique being used at any given moment. For example, double poling while it does use the legs and abs and back uses the arms more. One skate uses the arms more than two skate. Offset can use the arms legs or more depending on whether you are trying to use the legs or more at a give point. For example on a long hill, I will alternate betwen soft skating with my legs and poling hard to soft poling with my legs and using the legs more to spread the work load around. As such, I can’t give you a straight answer, but lets just say that when you have finished a race both your upper and lower body should feel like they want to detach themselves from you body and seek a period of hibernation. Either way, you are supporting your body weight at all times with your legs.