Doing my first IM in 2015 ( Aug) and have been reading up on plans. I understand the whole concept of slow easy distance in all 3 events but I really feel better putting in one good ol’e ass whoopin workout in a week even now during the winter when Im supose to be building my base. I feel better after a goo , hard workout. Am I screwing up my training by doing this? Im still going to get my miles in despite this, Im just wondering if there is a physiologic reason why I should not do this. Back ground as follows: 3rd year triathlete, first half was last year as was my first OLY. The year prior to that was all sprints. I race at a pretty high level winning my age goup all last summer. 6-8 hours of training over the past 2 years and am currently at just under 10 hours/week. Typical week of training is 2 or 3 swims 2k to 3K, bike: road and trainer about 3.5 hours a week. Some rides on trainerroad intervals/ over/unders at or just over FTP, and runs between 6-15 miles, usually 3/week. My faster pace ironicly is usually during my longer runs of 10- 15 miles. The other question is how many hours should I ramp up to? This is my first IM but I want to be competative. I want to put in my time and I do not want excuses that I “didnt put in the miles” I was thinking 20-25 hours just before taper. Is this reasonable? Thanks…
Sorry…Im currently at 20-25 MPW running with a plan to get to around 45-55. Is this enough?
Here is my two cents as a Lydiard disciple and with a marathon PR of 2:32 after a cycling background.
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Running one harder run other than your long slow distance runs is not going to hurt as long as it doesn’t mess up your long slow distance runs. If it does interfere with your “easy” run, then you did it too hard. Your “easy” run, while at an easy pace, is designed to bring about fatigue by the end of the run. When I was running base my “easy” base runs kept on getting incrementally longer and faster. Do vary the workouts though so you are not comparing one day to the next.
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Running enough to be competitive, I can’t say. Given the little information that I have about you and the races you will be in requires more information. Having a cycling background would help; yet you would need to put in running specific miles to have a competitive endurance run.
Here is my two cents as a Lydiard disciple and with a marathon PR of 2:32 after a cycling background.
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Running one harder run other than your long slow distance runs is not going to hurt as long as it doesn’t mess up your long slow distance runs. If it does interfere with your “easy” run, then you did it too hard. Your “easy” run, while at an easy pace, is designed to bring about fatigue by the end of the run. When I was running base my “easy” base runs kept on getting incrementally longer and faster. Do vary the workouts though so you are not comparing one day to the next.
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Running enough to be competitive, I can’t say. Given the little information that I have about you and the races you will be in requires more information. Having a cycling background would help; yet you would need to put in running specific miles to have a competitive endurance run.
I was a runner a while back, intermittent training over the years and very steady training over the last 3 but only 6-7 hours a week ( total of swim/bike/run). Running was tough at first, fighting off minor injuries but that is not a problem now. Turns out biking is by far my strongest event but I just attibute that to the fact that I can bike without injuries. Last year I could only get up to 15 MPW. Running 2025 now with no problem at all ( running on Hoak’s as well). Im 48. Swimming is fair at best and in my first and only half I averaged 1:36/100 yards. Working on that now and hope to be sub 1:30 this coming summer.
Sorry…Im currently at 20-25 MPW running with a plan to get to around 45-55. Is this enough?
If you can get to the point of running 45-55 miles per week consistently, week in and week out, for several months, it is enough. With that type of moderate mileage, a little hard running is not going to mess you up. You need to show some restraing though, especially when you cycling mileage starts to climb. Most are not able to show enough restraint and overdo it so they are better off limiting their runs to zone 2. You can get away with some hard running but just be smart about it. You are already fast on the shorter stuff, so you will be fast at the longer stuff if you prepare well and race smart. Honestly, building “fast” is harder than building “far.”
Ken66, maybe I missed it but what are you averaging now for running? How much do you weigh?
Swim average is 1:36 per 100.
Bike average was 15mph. What is it now?
Run average per mile for 5K or 10K?
To me it sounds like your swim is your strength relative to bike and run. What is your definition of being competitive, a finish in the top half?
I did my first IM this year and could have prepared better by doing more base. I am a weak swimmer, so I focused on the swim, but didn’t get enough miles in on the bike, which hurt my run. Lesson learned. At a minimum you should be doing 2-3x the race distance per week with at least one hard workout. Base for me is Z2(aerobic)-Z3(sub threshold). Recovery is Z1.
Swim: 2-3 x 3800 meters/week
Bike: 2-3 x 112 miles/week
Run: 1.5-3 x 26.2 miles/week
Personally I don’t see much harm in this if your body can handle it. A wise man once told me, “in order to run fast, you have to run fast.” If you can put in a solid high end workout each week, and still hit your long base mile paces, without getting injured, I can only see this being an asset once you arrive at your start line.
As for time spent training, I think this is something you shouldn’t be too concerned about. Everyone is different in this regard. I’m sure you can find examples of people who have trained for 30 hours per week and did an 11 hour Ironman, and people who have trained for 10 hours and did the same. It’s completely relative to the person. A big no no is getting caught up in the idea that you have to hit a certain number to be competitive. When doing this I find a lot of people tend to sacrifice quality workouts for junk miles, in order to attain a certain volume of training. Putting in a high quality 20 hour week is actually very challenging. Putting in a great deal of junk miles for 20 hours isn’t very difficult. I’d say you’d be better off putting in 15 quality hours per week where you hit the appropriate paces in order to tax your system properly, than putting in 25 sub par hours.
Everyone is different in this regard. I’m sure you can find examples of people who have trained for 30 hours per week and did an 11 hour Ironman, and people who have trained for 10 hours and did the same.
Or, those freaks that can do 11 hour Ironmans on 5 hours of training, maybe on none? You should test this.
Sorry for not being clear. I was running only 15 miles per week last year because of minor injuries, currently running 20-25 a week with no problem. I run between 7:20-8:20 pace. 7:20 pace is easy/mod pace for me on longer runs. I would guess if I were to do an all out solo 10 miler I would be in the 6:30-6:40 pace. Swimming as mentioned is 1:36 pace for a half. Biking is my strength. My first and only half my bike average was 24.8 mph on a pretty hilly course (2500 feet of elevation gain over the 56 miles)
Ken66, maybe I missed it but what are you averaging now for running? How much do you weigh?
Swim average is 1:36 per 100.
Bike average was 15mph. What is it now?
Run average per mile for 5K or 10K?
To me it sounds like your swim is your strength relative to bike and run. What is your definition of being competitive, a finish in the top half?
Oh and my weight is 175lbs, 6’1" tall. Im hoping my run comes around with the increase in mile running and biking. My ftp is in the 330 range on the lower training #'s I did last year. Im just hoping to hold that same power output and loose a little weight. Im thinking that running 50 miles a week will take away some of my biking power #'s?
Ken66, wow, that sounds competitive to me.
A 1:36 swim average, a 24.8mph bike and the ability to run in the range of 6 to 8 minute miles.
Biking and running are not mutually exclusive. Jack Foster, from New Zealand, was a cyclist turned marathoner who ran 2:11 at age 41. Even though he was serious runner at that age, Jack continued to do a long bike ride on Sundays rather than run. Lydiard said that cycling helps one develop leg lift which is where most people have to stop running, they can’t lift their legs.
Do increase your running to build “coordination” and running specific endurance. Try to get as comfortable and in control on the run as you are swimming and biking. Fast(er) running can be a part of this and focus on holding good form while running. You will make endurance gains, then the ability to run shorter distances faster occurs and then you will run longer distance faster. Try to get to the point where you don’t feel tired running which is more important than going faster.
I don’t think you will lose much power on the bike or swim. If you lose some, are you more than making it up on the run. Monitor your run gains and overall times. Worst case is that if one gets hurts running one can generally swim and bike until they are back to normal.
As for ironman training i’m not sure what quality means. I know quality means race pace or close to race pace for shorter distances. Like if you’re training for a 10k, and sort of running close to 10k race pace is considered quality. However, for ironman pace, the “Junk miles” are pretty close to ironman race pace right? Like if you go outside and slug a 8:20min mile, for a couple hours that would be considered junk miles if you’re wanting to run a 6min 10k, while i guess quality for ironman races.
Again Im sorry…im piecing this together as the thread goes along but I wanted to keep this thread as short as I could and keep the basic info included but obviously training can be complicated. Thank you for your input and the input of others. I really do appreciate all of your advice. I m coaching myself at present and a lot of this is really foreign to me ( full IM anyway). You speak of “leg lift” and coordination"…Funny you mention. I just started using Powercranks and Ive noticed higher leg lift while running after using the cranks. Is it working positively on me ? I think so. Is it just that Im able to put in more miles now without injury? Maybe. Maybe its all of the above. Ass for FTP power I would love to expand on it but I also need to be able to run. The bike is 50% of the race and I know I can not forget that, But I am originally a runner. I’d like to use this to my advantage. I will always be able to run “pretty good” even if I train hard on the bike But I still want to get the run really working. It is frustrating to run feeling like your legs are tied together, Maybe its just because Im 48 now, but I used to run very fast as a college age man. Something in me wants to get that really going again ( age appropriate of course) but the bike is 50% of the race and my main goal is the finish time, not my run time. I see many really fast runners that really suck on the bike. I assume that in order to be real fast running you need to be light footed and this usually means scant muscled legs. Great for running but not for cycling where leg power is king. Im willing to sacrifice some running speed for cycling power as I have mentioned the bike is 50% of the race. Anyway, I really want to go for it this year at Mont Tremblant. I really think if I put the miles in and do it smartly, I have a good chance to AG podium. Ive never done a full IM. Bold for me to expect or wish for a podium I know but shit…WTF! If Im going to train hard, and train right I want to go for it. I can bike with the best of them, that I know, I as a young man could run sub 5 minute miles for 5 miles over grass and hills…swimming? Well that’s as I mentioned is my weakness. Im working on it hard. I could not swim at all 2 + years ago now I’m at 1:36 pace for a half. What will I be doing next summer? Don’t know but I feel I should be doing sub 1:30 pace. Mont Tremblant is a very competitive race and Im looking forward to racing my first IM against some of the fastest AG 'ers in the world. Thank you all for your assistance. I would love to meet some of you doing this race. From what zi hear it is a great time!
Ken66, wow, that sounds competitive to me.
A 1:36 swim average, a 24.8mph bike and the ability to run in the range of 6 to 8 minute miles.
Biking and running are not mutually exclusive. Jack Foster, from New Zealand, was a cyclist turned marathoner who ran 2:11 at age 41. Even though he was serious runner at that age, Jack continued to do a long bike ride on Sundays rather than run. Lydiard said that cycling helps one develop leg lift which is where most people have to stop running, they can’t lift their legs.
Do increase your running to build “coordination” and running specific endurance. Try to get as comfortable and in control on the run as you are swimming and biking. Fast(er) running can be a part of this and focus on holding good form while running. You will make endurance gains, then the ability to run shorter distances faster occurs and then you will run longer distance faster. Try to get to the point where you don’t feel tired running which is more important than going faster.
I don’t think you will lose much power on the bike or swim. If you lose some, are you more than making it up on the run. Monitor your run gains and overall times. Worst case is that if one gets hurts running one can generally swim and bike until they are back to normal.
I follow a general framework from Jack Daniel’s Running Formula, though not nearly as closely as I used to as I am not training purely for running. For me, Vo2Max is about 2:55/km. Lactate Threshold is about 3:08/km. Endurance pace is about 3:55/km. While training for a 70.3 I would consider junk miles to be somewhere between 3:20 and 3:40/km. But, I race at around 3:20/km. In training I spend almost no time at the paces I race at.The only time I would find this acceptable is during a brick workout.
All of the same rules still apply, even when training for an Ironman. I am still working the Vo2Max and the Lactate Threshold constantly. I will do more race specific quality work, but it certainly will not be at the pace I plan to race at. At IMFL I ended up holding 3:53/km for the marathon. I did my race specific intervals at about 3:30/km. The reason for allowing the decrease in pace (from 3:13/km which is what I would do a lot of my 70.3 race specific intervals at) is that I was doing significantly longer intervals i.e. up to 10 kilometers. I would never underestimate the power of spending time at Vo2Max and Lactate Threshold, even while training for an Ironman.This is what I am referring to when I say quality. If you can put together a 20 hour week, spending a fair amount of time at Lactate Threshold, a decent amount of time at Vo2Max and put in good deal of time at a more race specific pace…that will be a very challenging week.
As well, I would say the Endurance / Easy runs can very easily become junk as well. I’m certain I could do my easy runs at 3:45/km, but that would leave me feeling overly taxed for my Vo2Max and Lactate Threshold runs. 3:55-4:00/km is a more quality pace for my Easy / Endurance runs as it helps with many physiological adaptations, while still leaving me decently fresh to be able to hit my Vo2Max and Lactate Threshold paced intervals later in the week.
You might notice that the pace I call quality for my Endurance runs ended up being very close to my marathon pace off the bike (3:53/km vs. 3:55-4:00/km). This I would attribute more to not having run up to my ability level in that race. With a better second half I think that gap would and should be a bit larger.
Ken66, that’s good that you are feeling more leg lift, just don’t use it while running.
Arthur Lydiard said to run like a Chinese coolie as much as possible during a marathon which meant without much leg lift. You have to save that leg lift for the end of the race or you will end up walking sooner than you would like.
“Coordination” is all the body parts working together with a certain flow that’s sustainable. Harder to do immediately off the bike yet it can be done. It helps me to run like the “Chinese coolie” that Arthur described with a shuffle and then open up to fuller stride as the run progresses. My warning is that a full stride even as early as the middle of the marathon could mean a long last 10K. Conserve and coordinate your run off the bike until you grow your experience with it. Treat that shuffle and stride like a swim stroke that you are trying to maintain for the distance.
“Coordination” - it sounds like you have all the pieces to be competitive, you just need more experience and self-information on how to go from a good swim, to bike, to run. As you were initially a runner, it’s time to discover the inner runner in you when you’ve been all “warmed up” by a swim and bike.
Good luck. I think you will do fine.
Or, those freaks that can do 11 hour Ironmans on 5 hours of training, maybe on none?
Over the course of a year I averaged about 10 - 12 hrs/week of training, and I came close to breaking 9 hours for IM a few times.
But that was after 10+ years of doing that! 
As for ironman training i’m not sure what quality means. I know quality means race pace or close to race pace for shorter distances. Like if you’re training for a 10k, and sort of running close to 10k race pace is considered quality. However, for ironman pace, the “Junk miles” are pretty close to ironman race pace right? Like if you go outside and slug a 8:20min mile, for a couple hours that would be considered junk miles if you’re wanting to run a 6min 10k, while i guess quality for ironman races.
Training is about adaptation not practicing your race. What paces you run depend on where you are in your training (base or build) and what you want to accomplish. In a base it’s less specific. So after you’ve built up a foundation of mileage, you might do intervals that are the least specific for your race. So a IM athlete might actually do some higher intensity 1500M or 5k pace intervals. Not enough to get highly fatigued, you don’t want to get injured or run with poor mechanics. Enough to create some adaptation and an opportunity to improve run mechanics by running fast. Then add some hill sprint repeats or similar. Same purpose. Short higher intensity bursts…but not a flat out sprint pace…that’s why it’s done uphill.
The perception is that your muscles fiber are what your training most of the time. Then we focus on the heart and lungs themselves. But in reality, those are passive systems that simply adapt automatically on their own. It’s the metabolic systems that really allow us to move. Muscle cannot fire without fuel…sort of like an electric motor, they run on electrons. There’s other limiting factors that you adapt as well… but you primarily are building your metabolism to sustain a delivery of fuel at a given rate for a certain duration.
In terms of running, I found that my easy runs were a little slower then my ideal IM run pace, but within my overall performance window. That’s going to vary somewhat however. A 3:10 runner will be into zone 2 running faster than his easy pace, while a 4:00 runner will stay is zone 1 and be closer to his easy run pace. a 3hr vs. a 4hr run is a different race. As is a 4:45 bike compared to a 6hr bike. Really, a different race.
There’s no such thing as junk miles. They all add to your fitness. You can only absorb and recover from so much quality (higher intensity) training load. Therefore to get more fit, you have to add in more overall load that you CAN recover from. It’s also why there’s an argument to not do very long runs, because it’s reduces to total work you can absorb in a week because of acute fatigue. If you break it into smaller chunks you can put in more training load.
Remember taking 1 week off because of a minor injury, can partially wipe away 2 months of gains. Although usually you got injured because of overreaching, so an extended recovery period, is often a good thing anyway, so the impact is minimized. It’s almost like overbooking an airline flight or a hotel. Some runners and triathletes might as well not even plan recovery weeks because they are sure to eventually drive themselves into the ground and get injured anyway. I’m only 1/2 joking here.
Great post by motoguy. Was going to write something along those lines as well. However I dont do any interval running at all (more than trail running and the natural fartlek it gives) right now and tbh I dont plan do to so closer to race either (other than sprint races, duathlons, 5-10k’s). I do all my interval work on the bike by doing very hard, structured and incrementally harder sessions. As long as I do the miles running at more or less any pace, my running improves pretty much linear with my bike gains, and bike gains are far more worth for a solid run than being at your absolute best running form.
However I do a block of run-specific training before my off-season, where I do 2 hard run session per week, at least 1 on the track. And switch some easy miles from bike to run as well.