Homage to Dev - some great threads started on 2hr runs and recovery time and bike training/effort effect on IM run time.
Here’s my topic, along similar lines. Several local athletes, and I think some of you, have made the decision to swim less and work more on your other disciplines. This, I think, was done because unless you’re fighting for 2-10 minutes advantage through the overall race once you can reliably swim 1hr to 1:10 for the IM the amount of training required for improvements doesn’t really pay off. The hours in the pool are time away from biking/running/family/rest and require their own recovery time.
So, for those of you who have cut back on your swimming:
What kind of swimmer were you in the first place (background, times, frequency of training)?
What sort of trade-off did you make? What are you doing now?
I know most would say cut back on swimming in favour of biking or running more but I have found success in doing the opposite.
Most age groupers really underestimate the physical demands of the swim. The fitter you can get swim wise the better your overall day is going to be. For me there was a tipping point in swim volume. When I ramped up to 5 sessions a week or 15 to 20km I really noticed the difference. I felt better on the bike and later in the run. It may not make much difference to your swim time but will to your overall time.
On a weekend try swimming 4km’s straight have a break and then do your long ride. You will really notice the effect it has.
I’m not training for an Ironman this year but have made some trade-offs from my swim time.
I recently cut my in-season swimming from 4 sessions of 3500yds to 3 2000yds and 1 3000yd open water session. I increased the intensity quite a bit and have been feeling much faster. I replaced the extra time swimming with cycling and have gotten better at that too.
edit: I’m still a fairly new swimmer 26:00 OLY time.
Unless you’re at the very pointy end of the race there’s no sense swim training for an ironman beyond the bare minimum to get through it with out thrashing yourself.
Think about what ironman is: A glorified marathon preceded by a dip in the water followed by a moderately long bike ride.
Your time is better spent biking and running. Mostly biking though.
*Disclaimer - I have never raced and will probably never race an IM distance race due to this disparity in race distances. My opinion is solely based on observation.
I swam twice a week in preperation for IM CDA and went 1:00 for the swim. I did one masters workout for 60 minutes which usually ran 2800 to 3200 yards. It was generally hard shorter stuff (ie, intervals less than 300 yards). My other swim was a solo effort of just long uninterupted aerobic effort focussing on technique. It was usually around 45-60 minutes.
I was an average high school and college (division II) swimmer. I agree with your general premise that working extra hard on the swim seems to gain little return compared to biking or running more. The swim in an IM (or half IM for that matter) is really too short relative to the other distances. I would love to see those scrawny runner dudes spend some more time in the water! For what it is worth, this was my first IM and I went 11:37 so I am not very fast.
Others are dead-on with the tipping point comments. My swim volume is WAY down, and I’m starting to lose the ‘feel’ for the water. My season is quickly winding down, but I’m not going to kill myself for 2 minutes in the drink where there are bigger gains on the bike and run.
BUT!!! if you’re shelled after a hard swim (no matter the distance) the rest of your day will be rough. I believe the saying goes ‘You can’t win a race in the lake, but you sure can lose it there’
I’ve always swam a reduced schedule simply because I don’t particularly enjoy swimming. I swim 3 times per week usually for a total of 5-7000m. I’ve gotten slightly faster over the years 1:13 in 2003 (IMF), 1:12 at IMUSA last year. I hope to go 1:10 at Wisc in a few weeks. Hopefully the new QR Superfull wetsuit will make the difference!
Mine is about 9-10K a week, had been for a while. I swim 58-1:00 I find that if I swim less than that I lose a bit of the feel but not enough to make a huge difference. if i swim more, well i feel better in the water but I need to bike and run so much more than swim that it’s not worth my time.
Unless you’re at the very pointy end of the race there’s no sense swim training for an ironman beyond the bare minimum to get through it with out thrashing yourself
*Disclaimer - I have never raced and will probably never race an IM distance race due to this disparity in race distances. My opinion is solely based on observation.
My observation (having done a number of Ironman races) is that swim training is the best injury free cardiovascular training there is - it can allow you to become more fit than you otherwise could doing only running and biking, since you don’t have to deal with recovery from the weight bearing activities and the wear and tear that accompany them.
Another nice side effect is that swimming (particularly if you include all the strokes) can really improve your tolerance for staying in the aero position when you are tired. If you’ve got the time, it’s worth way more than the handful of minutes that shows up in your swim split.
You can’t train to race efficiently for 10 to 17 hours by actually biking and running for 10 to 17 hours day after day, but you can cross-train your cv system to the point that you can handle the effort on race day.
If someone just plain doesn’t enjoy swimming, that’s fine, but all this vehement discounting of the benefits doesn’t wash…
I have cut way back on my swimming. I only average 6-7 swim workouts a month (as compared to around 18-20 runs and 15-18 rides).
I swam competitively for nearly 20 years (from 5 yo through college). When equally weighting my training, I am a top 1% swimmer in my AG. I used to take alot of pride in this, until I pulled my head out of my arse and realized how much it was killing my overall performance. Now I not only heavily weight my training on cycling and running, but I have REALLY eased up on my race pacing on the swim. This entire season I have been literally lollygagging through the swim leg at around 135 bpm, focusing on finding a good draft pack and enjoying myself. Even so, I’m still getting out of the water in the top 15% of my AG. In a HIM, I only lose maybe 5 minutes, but I feel fantastic heading into T1. Which is good, since I am only an above average cyclist and I run like a wounded cow.
I haven’t swam more then 3000m in one session in months… I haven’t swam for more then 60 minutes in months… I normally swim 2 - 3 times a week between 1.5 - 2.5 hours…
The Saturday before IMLP I went out and swam two laps in 1:10 and that was a relaxed, take your time, concentrate on my catch and hip turn type of swim…
I started swimming in December of 2002… I didn’t know how to swim for all intent and purposes… My first 25 yards were done in 43 strokes and me holding on for dear life at the end… I thought I was going to die… Found myself a Total Immersion coach who taught me the basics… I am in no means a TI guy today, but I can routinly go 16 strokes and 1:40 100’s in a pool… and normally have a 1:30/35 100 in races…
Extra time in the pool to get a few minutes just doesn’t seem worth it to me…
Andy is right on. Many of you make think that’s it not worth the extra time to swim, but when you are IM training and your body is tired and your muscles ache, you can get in the pool and swim. #1 it provides active recovery and #2 you can do some hard sets to get your HR up and improve your aerobic fitness without beating yourself down. On top of that, once you stand up at IM it feels like you swam 500 yards, vs 4200 yards you will know what I mean. I couldn’t believe how easy the swim was at LP this year. I hardly even pulled, I just sat in some fairly quick feet and got pulled along. It literally felt like a 500 yd swim. I stood up at 1:01:04 or something. This year in NZ I was 58:4x - so without the run around the 1/2 way point at LP, I am sure the times would have been close as NZ is a one loop swim.
I am very happy with the time and effort I have put into my swim in the past 20 months. Before that I had to swim VERY HARD to get to 1:03 and it killed me by the time I stood up. Now, its easy and the rest of my race is better off for it. If you put the time into the swimming, when you need that extra gear at the end of the run, you have it. Your body isn’t fatigued as badly, and I strongly believe that all the swimming helps my running in triathlons from sprints to IM.
I used to swim alot, maybe 4 times a week, once open H2O. I mostly got 4-5+k per workout. I swam with swimmers. I got as fast as a 55 at LP and did a 19 at columbia once (2001?)(Hey, I am rounding down, but a 55:49 is a 55 right, and a 19:51 is a 19, right?). I run like shit, so the trade off has been up to a 58 in the swim, with a 3:45 run in IMC '02. That represents a 12 minute net to the faster. I now do 3 times a week, but only 3k each, and one open H2O. I can swim the 3k in 45 minutes on an average day, and actually structure my workout to maximize the yardage and minimize the rest. I spend 1/2 as much time in the pool, I feel less fatigued, and have 2-3 hours extra to run more, bike more and consequently do better. I have been swimming for 35 years, and was once competitve at the div 3 college level. I find that I need to stay in contact with the water to have a comfortable “feel” for it. Shorter swims, on MWF AM keep the stroke in line and the open water stuff keeps my skills from deteriorating (i.e. swimming a straight line), but I really need to concentrate on my running more, as the net effect is faster for me if my running is on form, relatively speaking, of course.
This has been my experience, but it could very well vary tremendously based upon an individual’s experience and relative strength in each discipline. Weak swimmers will expend more energy on the swim, so it may be wise to spend some more time working on it.
Even though I am still a relative new comer to the triple scene… 1.5 injury tainted seasons and 1 good one… this is one area where i can kinda smile and compare myself with those evil Larsen bashing threads. I was fortunate enough to grow up with two parents who loved swimming and encouraged me to pursue my natural talent. Given the chance with some good coaches I spent my early years (10-15) consistently ranked in the top 16 in the country and then 16-18 as one of the top world juniors and top 50 world rankings… so this is where i can say that 10 years of two a days and summer weeks of 100,000m a week (that’s 61 miles for you standard/english folks) swimming allow for me to hardly ever think about the swim now adays… now it hits me… why oh why did i not ride a bike! Argh!
well to answer the original questions though…
What kind of swimmer were you in the first place (background, times, frequency of training)?
answered above… 200m Butterfly 2.01 1/2 IM swim 22:08 IM swim 47:12 i dont push it in TRI swim except in sprints
**What sort of trade-off did you make? What are you doing now? **
definitely more cycling and running… damn gravity when in the pool all i work on is keeping a hihgh stroke rate… i use a tempo trainer for assistance and good consistent repetative speed/tempo work How did that work out for you?
I dont have any regrets… at one point i thought i would go back and swim more long and slow stuff to “gain endurance.” That just ended up being a HUGE waste of time. usually 2 swims a week but both of very high quality and about 3000-3500 each.
I guess the disclaimer that comes with this is that i pretty much have developed gills and am a fish now… kinda like if larsen were to get on here and say… screw LSD rides they do nothing for you just ride 4 hours a week hard. If you would like some more specifics into how i would approach specific IM training for someone hoping to really improve just fire me a PM. Good luck with your decision.
when in the pool all i work on is keeping a hihgh stroke rate… i use a tempo trainer for assistance and good consistent repetative speed/tempo work