I’m thinking about an '06 ironman…my third. In the first two, I put out a measured effort on the bike to meet time goals and ran/walked the marathon. Silly mistake. I’d like to think I’m a bit wiser now. I’m not a great runner, but I know I can do better.
Any thoughts on how much time to give on the bike in order to “save” for the run?
Perhaps the answer lies in HR data or even wattage.
If you’re a coach and you impress me with your answer, you may just get a new client.
Halfway through your post I was thinking I was going to reply and give you my impression. But that last smart ass remark really spoiled it for me…
i was just going to bump this post as it is actually about triathlon. zippy, i would think a coach or would-be-coach will need to know your first 2 IM splits, any stand-alone marathon times, other history, limiters, star sign, etc.
Not only all the splits and open marathon times but how much time did you put into the bike and run training. Not enough time on the bike will kill your marathon split. Same logic for those who can only swim so fast but still train hard so they are ready to ride once out of the water. Let me know if you have questions but definitely need more information.
To answer your question more info is needed about your training, racing, splits etc.
I’d say it’s smart to lose a few minutes early in the bike ride and maybe about 3/4 through to insure getting nutrition on board. Same thing throughouot the first couple of run aid stations. The fluid and calories you take in there can save you big time later. Dehydration sucks
“Save for the run”. Is this a term that slow runners use to justfy their bad bike split?
Your IM performance should be at your target heart rate… If you have to ride over your HR, then your training failed and you’re now suffering a slow IM defeat. If you ride under your HR, then you’re sandbagging. ;o)
Worry about your heart rate…not about your speed. It will come.
Well i wouldn’t say that HR is the be all end all of managing the bike and run leg. But you are probably right that IM execution is derived from training, and particularly from race-pace sim sessions in peak period. Watts and RPE could also be used. I would say that the original poster’s plan to meet a pre-set bike split no matter what doesn’t seem like a good way to ensure the best run split or best IM finish time.
In fact, although I am no coach or tri-stud, that might be the most helpful reply. Zippy already suspects that “Perhaps the answer lies in HR data or even wattage.” But the very framing of his question is indicative of a foundational conceptual error, to wit, asking “how much time to give on the bike in order to “save” for the run?” The IM bike-run combo, I would suggest, is not best thought of as a big unit of time, where going x minutes slower in one can make you go x+y minutes faster in the other. Rather, the key to an optimal race lies in executing a race plan based on what you know your body can do from training. I suppose the right coach could help you understand what your body can do from training.
This is a tough one. After 9 IM’s I’m still not quite sure where to peg the Bike effort. All I know, is every time I’ve tried to “hammer” the bike my run split suffered. It’s a balancing act. I would like to know what people believe to be the appropriate HR level for the IM Bike. What percentage of max are you working off of? Is it more a function of Lactate threshold or percentage of max HR. I have a heck of a lot easier time perceiving proper exertion levels on the run than on the bike. Any feedback would help me and perhaps Zippy too?
pdxjohn,
You have a lot more experience than most so we should be asking you this question…I think perecntage of LT would be better than max as LT can be anywhere from 80-90% of max (roughly)…I’d race off HR data before RPE in a full IM (esp. early on the bike) - and maybe watts would even be better (I’m waiting to get a power meter and play). There is some stuff at Gordo’s right now about % threshold power (CP60) that you should be able to hold in an IM. Gordo likes Aet - and says he hasn;t found anybody hold more than Aet+10 for an IM. I’ve heard people say race IM bike about 15 beats (HR) lower than a half IM bike. This is obviously the golden question to a good IM and so many things can cause your run to suck - lack of endurance, nutrition, poor pacing - so even if you experiment a lot - you are always left wondering exactly what went wrong…not that that helps you at all - but a poll of IM HR’s and splits would be interesting to see - esp. in the context of max HR, LT HR, half IM HR…
Dave
Halfway through your post I was thinking I was going to reply and give you my impression. But that last smart ass remark really spoiled it for me…
Kind of ironic don’t you think?
Like the previous posts mentioned, we need more info. In short, you need to ride at an effort that will allow you to run your best marathon - and it’s personal for everyone. I know for me it’s about 15-20 bpm under LT - even though I don’t race IM with a HRM, I know what that effort is. Watts is a great way to go if you have the equipment. Being able to dial in watts/cadence/HR is a big advantage over other athletes in the race.
The general rule of thumb is for every mile walked on the IM Marathon, you could have biked MPH slower. So, if you are walking at all, you should have biked slower, if your goal is to maximize your marathon.
I had an athlete this year that went from 13:01 (2002 vineman) to 11:31 at IMCdA this year. The key was the bike pacing. He rode an easy 6:12 and spun up every hill seated - never wasting energy by standing or grinding. He got off the bike and ran past 393 people. I think he did an incredible job of pacing. We focused on HR/effort (no wattage tools available) and we applied that to the race. Could he have biked harder? Yup. Would he have walked on the run? Probably.
So practicing the right effort time after time is the key. It’s just dicsipline in training that you carry over to racing. Very few people can execute that in a race situation.
Very helpful info. IM #1, bike was 5:32 and run was 4:10. IM #2, bike was 5:20 and run was 3:51. For each race, I trained on average 8-15 hours a week with a final week of about 20 hours three weeks out. Average bike mileage about 160, and 25-30 for the run.
For the past two years, I have just been running. The focus of last year was a marathon; I ran a 3:28. I’m not sure if I have a better marathon in me or not. I thin I do, as training is going better. I’ll run another in November, and that could factor into whether or not I do another IM, as I do not want another 4 hour performance.
Thoughts on HRM/wattage training? I’d like to learn how to gauge my effort.
Thanks!
Looks like you brought your run time down quite a bit - from 4;10 to 3:51 - so what did you do differently on race #2 - secondly - I think that it takes a few IMs to get it right - it took me 4 to get a decent run time (for me - 3:41) and I think you just need to keep plugging away.
How much run volume did you do for the 3:28 - have you run a 10k or 1/2 marathon? Best times for those?
Once you get a baseline watts test done - knowing your watts at threshold would be awesome - from there you will know EXACTLY how hard to train on a daily basis - which means there won’t be any more wasted time on the bike and both your run and bike will improve as a result of training/racing at the correct effort (according to watts/HR).
OK, let me try and put some actual numbers to it. If a runner is going to do a 10:00 per mile “run”, that is a 4:22 marathon. If they have to walk, that’s easily a 15 minute mile, so every mile they walk, they lost 5 minutes. Every 10 minutes on the bike for 112 miles at 18-20 mph is about 0.5 mph. So, 2 miles of walking at 15 minutes/mile, instead of 10, is like going 0.5 mph slower on the bike for 112 miles! Did I do the math right?
You definitely don’t want to go so hard on the bike that you can’t maintain a good run speed. Perhaps the key is knowing what your WORST pace is for a marathon, so that you can at least maintain your standalone worst marathon pace (add a few extra seconds per mile to be sure) when you get off the bike? Plausable? Maybe this way, you won’t have to slow down from your usual worst pace…a pace which would theoretically coincide with your all-day energy burning capabilities.
Well, at least I talked myself into believing it is a valid strategy! Heck, if you messed it up and went to easy, you can always run a little faster! IF you go too hard at any time earlier, though, you’ve dug yourself a hole that’s hard to climb out of without some serious slowing down.
Mike,
Super stuff. First IM run was hilly (LP) and the second was flat (Denmark), which definitely helped bring the time down. I was also more aware of my effort on the bike in Denmark, but there was no science behind my strategy; just a red flag when I felt my effort was too much.
Since the marathon last fall, I have only run one other race; a 5 miler a few weeks ago (33:30). Half marathon in three weeks, so that will be a nice gauge.
As far as marathon training went last year, I was consistently in the upper 30’s to mid 40’s for two months prior, with one week in the low 50’s. I’m reasonably confident I can run under 3:15. I was on a 3:15 pace last year through mile 22 when the bottom fell out. I had no real expectations for that race, so I was pretty happy with that result.
I am very interested in time-efficient training this time around. My second child was just born, and the kids were the main reason I switched to just running two years ago. Can this be done well with HR training? My buddies are pushing the watts approach, and cost starts to enter into the picture.
Thanks for the time…
I think that math is right from the looks of it but I do think walking a mile is more like 20 minutes - walk a lap on a track sometime - see how long is takes. I think a 20 minute mile is a pretty good clip.
Coach Ricci, I think you may be right about the time it takes to walk a mile…which makes it even more important to avoid! It would do all of us iron-newbies well to remember that.
Zippy -
Someone (you) that can run a 33:30, 5 mile race - would put you around a 3:15-3:18 by my charts/tables. Knowing that, I would say your IM Marathon time could be around 3:45 or even better depending on bike fitness/pacing/nutrition etc - so it sounds like your marathon goals match your fitness right now. That is a good start.
To answer your question - yes. 95% of my athletes use HRM alone, and the other 5% use a power meter of some type. So, yes, using HRM/effort/pace will work fine for running. Another option could be to get your watts@threshold tested - then you have the HRM numbers that correlate and you can go back and get tested every few months. Maybe a little more cost effective for you…I hope this helps…