Also 6 months is not enough. Try 4 years and then come back. There is no magic to this.
The pace I can hold on is about 1’50".
Also, there is no way I can keep on for 4 years unless I see a good possibility to get into the elite class afterwards. I just want to complete the challenges and races I’ve booked pre-COVID and see if I still want to continue swimming or give up completely afterwards depending on the improvement in this half a year.
I don’t disagree with you, which is why I gave no training advice other than to suggest the OP provide more information. On reading their last post I have come to the conclusion they are unrealistic and while they are on a Triathlon page, the focus is on events unrelated to Triathlon. So I have rather lost interest.
Serious question: How many pushups can you do?
You can have the best catch in the world, but if you don’t have strength, you can’t pull the water. You need both.
I was in the military, and maintained good body conditioning. But my form was SO BAD. I would flounder around in the pool for a 30 minute 1500. But after four years of this, my swimming speed took off like wildfire once I joined a masters team that had a GOOD COACH on deck.
But I don’t think I could have done that without the base of muscle strength I’d built up for a number of years.
If you’ve met people who have gotten fast quickly, I’d say it’s because their bodies were primed and ready to receive proper coaching.
Also 6 months is not enough. Try 4 years and then come back. There is no magic to this.
SO TRUE. It took me 6 months to go from 2:20 to high 1:50’s… and 4 years to get to consistent mid 1:40’s, and cracking 1:30’s in wetsuit races. It’s also taken a shit ton of weightlifting, to put some swim muscle on my skinny ass frame. Being ectomorph is great for running, ok for cycling, but crap for swimming.
I don’t disagree with you, which is why I gave no training advice other than to suggest the OP provide more information. On reading their last post I have come to the conclusion they are unrealistic and while they are on a Triathlon page, the focus is on events unrelated to Triathlon. So I have rather lost interest.
.
If you have read any of the OP’s previous threads you will see that he is trying to get himself in shape to swim the English Channel next year all the time complaining about lack of pool access and warm water temperature in training while happily throwing all of his “coaches” under the bus.He is one very high maintenance adult onset swimmer who is overthinking everything.He has received some very good advice from some great swim coaches here over the last few months but is clearly ignoring the very real possibility that the sort of improvement he is hoping for will take a long time and even then he may never be ready to swim to France.
Also 6 months is not enough. Try 4 years and then come back. There is no magic to this.
The pace I can hold on is about 1’50".
Also, there is no way I can keep on for 4 years unless I see a good possibility to get into the elite class afterwards. I just want to complete the challenges and races I’ve booked pre-COVID and see if I still want to continue swimming or give up completely afterwards depending on the improvement in this half a year.
OK OK OK…I will brow beat you over the head right now.
There is no way you will make advancements in ANYTHING if the decision point is “I advance or I quit”. Because the likely scenario is getting frustrating and quitting.
Like anything in life, be it playing the violin, triple integrals, becoming an expert at Shakespeare, dolphin kicking the length of the pool under water, cooking etc etc. The only way you get good is figuring out a way to love the process and embrace the misery of not getting better…and do it over and over and over and over, while seemingly making zero progress day over day, but then you look back over many quarters or years and you compare the workout today to the one last week and realizing that your sucked worse today than last week, but then you look back at Nov 13th, 2017 and you realize that its actually turned into a massive leap where your absolute worst possible day in 2020 surpasses your PB days from 2017. In essence this is what an elite athlete has to do…they have to lift their worst performance because that’s the gauge of your abilities…the best performance may or may not happen on race day, but your worst performance you can always count on.
Look how Primoz Roglic won the Vuelta…he could have lost it on the last climb on the second last day, of the Vuelta, but he dropped back to his sustainable “OK I have no legs, but I can just hunker down to my blowup pace”. Between that pace and on days when he felt good and bagged bonus seconds, that was enough to win the grand tour. For swimming its really your worst sustainable pace that defines your swim capability. This is what you are trying to lift.
Same thing with Ironman running pace. If you want to know what running pace you can bank on take all your hours of running for the year and divide it by all your miles. This pace per mile is your “bankable Ironman base pace”. Its what you can do everyday every mile all year. You ideally go much faster, but if you just to basic pacing and fueling, this should be doable on race day.
I don’t have a lot of advice on how to swim faster, but I did want to point at your swim progression. Remember that progress is hardly ever linear; huge gains usually occur at the beginning, usually followed by a plateau and then alternating plateaus and incremental improvements.
1500m times
2016: 50 mins (OW, maybe long)
2017: didn’t swim much
2018, may: 35 min (pool)
2018, oct: 32 min (pool, ~10% improvement!!!)
2019 spring: 31 min (pool, still improving!)
2019 summer: plateau
2020 spring: 29 min (pool, improving again!)
2020 summer: didn’t swim
It will take some time to come back from the months out of the water. I’m been swimming since June and still not back to where I was after the 3 months off of swimming, so don’t be discouraged about not being immediatly back to where you were this spring.
Over 2 years (2018 spring to 2020 spring), you’ve reduced your 1500m time by 6 minutes (almost 20%)! That’s huge for us AO swimmers and you’re likely at a point where your gains are going to be incremental steps and not huge leaps. As others have suggested, maybe it’s time to try some additional speed work for a while and see what happens. Often times you just need a change in training stimulus.
I agree. Overall there has been progress. There have been interruptions which will throw off steady/consistent progress. These interruptions can kill progress/momentum. I was in the best swim shape of my adult life last March. Pools got closed for 3 months. I was good about doing dryland exercises, but it only helped mitigate the loss of swim fitness. I was back in the pool the end of May and have been working hard ever since then to get back to where I was. Despite higher frequency and slightly more volume, I’m still not back. Part of that could be that I’m battlling age (54yo), but I refuse to believe that so far.
To the OP, as others have said, really long, slow swimming isn’t going to help you get faster. My gains in the pool have come when I have cut out/reduced long continuous swims and have focused on sets of 100’s, 200’s up to 400’s. The guy who broke the Hawaiian Ironman swim course record a couple of years ago did it by training sets of 400 repeats. I asked a FOP swimmer what his swim training looks like and he said he does no sets longer than 400. Keep working! You’ll get there! Focus on shorter, harder sets. Good luck!
Also 6 months is not enough. Try 4 years and then come back. There is no magic to this.
SO TRUE. It took me 6 months to go from 2:20 to high 1:50’s… and 4 years to get to consistent mid 1:40’s, and cracking 1:30’s in wetsuit races. It’s also taken a shit ton of weightlifting, to put some swim muscle on my skinny ass frame. Being ectomorph is great for running, ok for cycling, but crap for swimming.
Also one aspect that none of these thread discuss is morphing our body from runner rigidity to swimmer suppleness.
One of my friends who was a national team swimmer and raced triathlon for Canada at the Sydney Olympics, said, 'look at the meat of a deer versus the meat on a salmon". One is hard and fiberous, the otherone soft and supple. If you want to become a good swimmer your body has to develop that suppleness, just like you can’t become supple at yoga in 1 month or 6 months…you would need years to get your body to move like a yoga pro. It is the same with swimming. Your body has to morph into that form…the Ectomorph land based deer that you and I were, does not cut it for swimming. You can literally see this in action watching Lionel Sanders. Alistair brownlee on the other hand has the entire upper body, hip and spinal mobility that just “flows”
You’ve got some good advice. Some contradicts successful logic (for some people).
Re: Talent. That is a big factor. Some people have “it” but never know because it will take work to unearth that talent. Sadly, some can put in the very same work and get mediocre results - at best.
Cutting to the chase. You wanna get good at swimming. Forget about long stuff for years (if ever).
Do what the kids do. Sprint, sprint and sprint more. Since you’ve likely got good cardiovascular development already from Bike and or Run; you don’t need to do short rest. Far better to do longer rest and go even faster. Speed is the teacher.
When I decided “no more mid-pack swim for me” I did almost every swim (5 - 6x per week) as a main set 12x100 (LCM) on 2:10 coming in between 80 and 85. when I switched to SCY the interval went to 2:05 coming in between 68 and 78. Learn to love the pace clock.
After a bit then move to 150’s and a few 300’s 400’s, etc. What you’re looking for is adjusting the pace down without losing the technique (and still going darn fast)
As far as joint mobility/general flexibility goes… anybody can work on it, but that too is somewhat “natural”
This stuff works, but you have to go fast to go fast. But, you have to assume that you have the talent from the outset. That’s the mental game. For me I was angry enough to end the mid pack swim attitude. In the process I discovered some decent talent was hiding. I’ve swam 27 min flat a few times for 70.3 and 58’s for IM. Now I’m on the decline due to age, but year after year I average at best 7,000 yds per week, so I can’t complain.
It’s really important to…
enjoy the journey (and the work)
I don’t have a lot of advice on how to swim faster, but I did want to point at your swim progression. Remember that progress is hardly ever linear; huge gains usually occur at the beginning, usually followed by a plateau and then alternating plateaus and incremental improvements.
1500m times
2016: 50 mins (OW, maybe long)
2017: didn’t swim much
2018, may: 35 min (pool)
2018, oct: 32 min (pool, ~10% improvement!!!)
2019 spring: 31 min (pool, still improving!)
2019 summer: plateau
2020 spring: 29 min (pool, improving again!)
2020 summer: didn’t swim
It will take some time to come back from the months out of the water. I’m been swimming since June and still not back to where I was after the 3 months off of swimming, so don’t be discouraged about not being immediatly back to where you were this spring.
Over 2 years (2018 spring to 2020 spring), you’ve reduced your 1500m time by 6 minutes (almost 20%)! That’s huge for us AO swimmers and you’re likely at a point where your gains are going to be incremental steps and not huge leaps. As others have suggested, maybe it’s time to try some additional speed work for a while and see what happens. Often times you just need a change in training stimulus.
I agree. Overall there has been progress. There have been interruptions which will throw off steady/consistent progress. These interruptions can kill progress/momentum. I was in the best swim shape of my adult life last March. Pools got closed for 3 months. I was good about doing dryland exercises, but it only helped mitigate the loss of swim fitness. I was back in the pool the end of May and have been working hard ever since then to get back to where I was. Despite higher frequency and slightly more volume, I’m still not back. Part of that could be that I’m battlling age (54yo), but I refuse to believe that so far.
To the OP, as others have said, really long, slow swimming isn’t going to help you get faster. My gains in the pool have come when I have cut out/reduced long continuous swims and have focused on sets of 100’s, 200’s up to 400’s. The guy who broke the Hawaiian Ironman swim course record a couple of years ago did it by training sets of 400 repeats. I asked a FOP swimmer what his swim training looks like and he said he does no sets longer than 400. Keep working! You’ll get there! Focus on shorter, harder sets. Good luck!
I’ll focus on speed work in the coming half a year. It really worked in the past 2019 - 2020 winter and I estimated that I dropped about 4 seconds per 100 over 2 months.
What I did was a USRPT set with the following simple rules:
I started this rigid plan 17 December 2019, initially I tried 1’48" target (short course) and made it with 2 failures. The next time I tried 1’46" target and made it with 1 failure only. Then I progressed to 1’44" target, I tried a few times and only made it with 2 failures in my 4th session at this target. Then COVID came and pool closed.
In March the long course pool was once reopened for a short while, I tried 1’46" and it was too hard - I accumulated 3 failures only at the 12th interval, then the world was shut again.
This month I restarted at 1’50" target long course and made it with 1 failure in my 2nd session trying this, I will try 1’48" in the coming week.
Unfortunately one of the two university pools (which are unheated outdoor pools) I had used for years is demolished and the other is closed for annual maintenance for about 6 - 8 weeks in winter. In the past one kept open while the other was in maintenance. I still can’t think of a way how to maintain that speed training at the beach yet. (I avoid municipal pools because they are heated to 26°C - 28°C; anything over 24°C degree is uncomfortable for me to do such speed training - I prefer 16 - 20°C pools)
Go to the heated pools and do shorter repeats. 25’s, 50’s and 75’s with equal rest will let you perform at a high level even in a warm pool. You need structure to your training and open water swimming is not as effective for the work you need to do.
Serious question: How many pushups can you do?
You can have the best catch in the world, but if you don’t have strength, you can’t pull the water. You need both.
I was in the military, and maintained good body conditioning. But my form was SO BAD. I would flounder around in the pool for a 30 minute 1500. But after four years of this, my swimming speed took off like wildfire once I joined a masters team that had a GOOD COACH on deck.
But I don’t think I could have done that without the base of muscle strength I’d built up for a number of years.
If you’ve met people who have gotten fast quickly, I’d say it’s because their bodies were primed and ready to receive proper coaching.
About 15 - 20 pushups.
Do what the kids do. Sprint, sprint and sprint more. Since you’ve likely got good cardiovascular development already from Bike and or Run; you don’t need to do short rest. Far better to do longer rest and go even faster. Speed is the teacher.
…
It’s really important to…
enjoy the journey (and the work)
This is the exact opposite of traditional triathlon training though. In 2016 or 2017 I mainly did that kind of training, doing intervals on 2:1 or 1:1 ratio. It dropped my 50 / 100 time but not anything over 400 m. Only when I moved to shorter rest my 400 or 1500 time started to take off. Now my single one-off 100 m can be as fast as 1’30" however my sustainable speed is nowhere near it. I can’t keep even 1’45" pace. I think this is clearly endurance problem, don’t you think so?
Also are the kids you mentioned those who swim 5k / 10k OW races? This will be my main focus in swimming. My plan this season is to do most of the work on an interval of 20 seconds rest.
Moreover, I currently don’t bike. I do run but not often in recent 2 years. Last year I dropped time on my 10k and ran a 1:42 half marathon on flat course with minimal training.
Ehhhhhh… he might be on to something. When I mentioned finally swimming with the masters team above and getting really fast, most of the workouts we were doing were for swimmers. So we did a LOT of sprinting. (Bot not only sprinting. They had a good balance of workout variance throughout the week.) But that was when I finally cracked 20 minutes in an OLY.
Sooooo… do more pushups, and do a sprint workout once per week.
Ehhhhhh… he might be on to something. When I mentioned finally swimming with the masters team above and getting really fast, most of the workouts we were doing were for swimmers. So we did a LOT of sprinting. (Bot not only sprinting. They had a good balance of workout variance throughout the week.) But that was when I finally cracked 20 minutes in an OLY.
Sooooo… do more pushups, and do a sprint workout once per week.
And how’s a sprint workout look like? I have no idea because I’m focusing only on long distance and triathlon training. The squad I’m in is a triathlon club and I am designing my own workouts also using triathlon training principles.
Sorry, but I call bs on your issue with heated pools. 28 C isnt that bad, but yeah a little warm, but 26 C is a standard competition pool temp, usually feels pretty cold. 16-20 C is insane and theres no way you’re consistently finding that anywhere. Long story short a standard pool temp isnt slowing you down, and quite frankly if that’s enough to stop you than you need to reevaluate your priorities.
Secondly, your swimming is like the person who starts running with marathons. You never learned to swim fast, and then wonder why you’re not going fast. Spend some time swimming fast and only doing races 1500m or shorter for a while, then push out the distance once you have a solid base of 50-1500m speed.
Finally, as for training, I’d recommend two things. As with every other sport, do lots easy, with a little fast. Pick two days to be your quality days. For the first couple months, do something like that 100s set, except with 50s. After a couple months than maybe bump it out to 100s. Second set, do a warm-up, then 16/12/8/4x25 as fast as you can with a sendoff that will give you 5 seconds rest for the 16, then add 5 seconds to that sendoff for the 12 and so on. Progress that to 50s as you get faster. Every other swim, swim aerobic without really thinking about pace. Everyone gets so caught up in the clock I think they end up always going too hard, then not being able to actually do quality work. A couple swims, use paddles and a buoy to build strength. Do a lot of snorkel work. Work on learning to feel the water, and thinking about how your body moves with every single stroke you take. Do that and you will almost certainly get faster. Do that for a few years and you’ll get a lot faster.
Sorry, but I call bs on your issue with heated pools. 28 C isnt that bad, but yeah a little warm, but 26 C is a standard competition pool temp, usually feels pretty cold. 16-20 C is insane and theres no way you’re consistently finding that anywhere. Long story short a standard pool temp isnt slowing you down, and quite frankly if that’s enough to stop you than you need to reevaluate your priorities.
A 26°C pool is unlikely to slow me down - it’s just a bit uncomfortable. However if the pool is 28°C, it will slow me down, I think by about 1 - 2 seconds per 100 m. If it is 30°C or more, I basically can’t perform the training. It happened all summer when the pool used in squad training could go up to 32°C or even 34°C because it’s an outdoor pool without temperature regulation (hence only 16°C in the winter). The coach has noticed that I always burnt out in the middle of training in summer. On cooler day it didn’t happen. In running same as well - in summer I burn out very fast but in winter I can run relatively well and keep my speed for a long time.
The jump from 31 minutes to 29 minutes 1500 m last year, apart from my training and the T.I. lesson I took, the temperature might play a major role also. The 31 minutes 1500 was in September when the pool was 28°C or even above, and when I did the 29 minutes in December, it was only 16°C.
Secondly, your swimming is like the person who starts running with marathons. You never learned to swim fast, and then wonder why you’re not going fast. Spend some time swimming fast and only doing races 1500m or shorter for a while, then push out the distance once you have a solid base of 50-1500m speed.
I can’t now. I intended to do so early this year from February to April after my race in January as my first training block, but COVID interrupted my plan.
This season now (November to March) is the critical season for me to get channel ready next year. I want to do a “rehearsal” swim in February, about 2/3 of the channel width, using the exact same crew, exact same protocol, condition as similar as possible, the support boat as similar as possible, starting at night and finishing in the day like a real channel swim, and get an observer to make me a report such that I can be fully prepared.
Finally, as for training, I’d recommend two things. As with every other sport, do lots easy, with a little fast. Pick two days to be your quality days. For the first couple months, do something like that 100s set, except with 50s. After a couple months than maybe bump it out to 100s. Second set, do a warm-up, then 16/12/8/4x25 as fast as you can with a sendoff that will give you 5 seconds rest for the 16, then add 5 seconds to that sendoff for the 12 and so on. Progress that to 50s as you get faster. Every other swim, swim aerobic without really thinking about pace. Everyone gets so caught up in the clock I think they end up always going too hard, then not being able to actually do quality work. A couple swims, use paddles and a buoy to build strength. Do a lot of snorkel work. Work on learning to feel the water, and thinking about how your body moves with every single stroke you take. Do that and you will almost certainly get faster. Do that for a few years and you’ll get a lot faster.
I will design my set to do that - but I won’t do 25 because all the pools I’m using are 50 so I will start with 50. And what do you mean by “swim aerobic”. I have no idea of that.
I gave you the answer.
Go read Brett Sutton on this stuff. People may not like him on here, but one specific thing he is renowned for, beyond his overall coaching, is getting peoples swim good.
I know a lot of us non-swimmer, or anti - swimmer types are lurking this thread. If y’all have never seen this before, it may help.
http://joelfilliol.blogspot.com/2012/01/most-popular-post-on-this-blog-is-is.html
You said: “zero talent is needed to swim 25’ for 1500m”.
Ouch. That’s harsh. I guess I have zero talent…
I’m not going to quit swimming, though. Otherwise, I’ll be an even slower swimmer and that won’t make me a better triathlete.