IM Idot - any IM person who is anything but pro who tells tall tales of IM like Al Bundy’s last high school football game as if it was yesterday. The fish is mounted but keeps on growing.
It is always a Canadian that likes to stir the pot. 
Great post Fleck. I knew what you meant with your initial post - but I could also see you heading into the dreaded train tunnel with no lamp on your head.
I love my fellow Canadians. 
Are these people adequately prepared for an Ironman?
LC
Answer - NO
.
I wasn’t responding to Fleck either.
Fleck…perhaps (as a fellow Canadian) I could do my service to take some of the heat off your shoulders…how about this observation: Times are getting slower People are spending more and more money on aero gear and lighter/funkier bikes to make themselves faster
Go figure?
Before I get flammed, let me say “Peace brotha”.
P.S. In my opinion, the true spirit of triathlon is seeing people take themselves from couch potatoes to fit individuals - I absolutely love seeing the look on peoples faces that are estatic with what they have accomplished. IMO, triathlon is not really about the top 5 men/women that make triathlon their life. It is about the mass of people that fit triathlon into their life.
Again, seems like lots of twitchy people here lately…
Great observations, Fleck, and as MJuric notes all one has to do is look at marathons and a very similar trend there. Don’t recall the specifics, but I believe the average finish time at most marathons now is in the 4 hour range, perhaps even higher. The proliferation of entities like TNT have made the marathon for many a once-and-done type thing. It doesn’t become a lifestyle.
Triathlon may be a bit different than running simply because there is much more involved—three disciplines as opposed to one comprising the sport. So those that jump in an do an Ironman are likely to stick with the sport, if perhaps not at the IM distance. Or so it might seem…just a theory on my part.
There’s a quote in one of the articles in the latest edition of “Triathlete” magazine—something to the effect that “Triathlon is not Ironman and Ironman is not triathlon…” Yet to the casual observer, mention the word “triathlon” and what’s the first thing that comes to their mind?
IMAZ is also relatively early in the year—most people are just nearing their first races. Having an Ironman be the first one out of the chute is a tough one for many having to slog through the winter to get the miles in. Oh certainly it can be done, as many here on the forum can attest, but for most the racing begins in the next month. Could that be a contributing factor to the slower times at AZ, all things being equal?
Yes, there are a whole bunch of IM’s out there, and the “talent” can be getting spread thin. In my mind, it’s just a “thing”—not a good thing necessarily or a bad thing…just a thing.
- Did not crunch the overall numbers, but the average finish time appears to be getting slower all the time. This despite all the, huge participation surge…
One might suggest that the decline in average time is because of, not in spite of, the huge participation surge. As more and more average Joes/Janes do IM, the average times are going to be slower.
Personally, I think IM is too much work Props to anyone who can finish one.
(It’s weird to read “Go to hell Fleck” - I think someone needs better reading comprehension)
Yes, there are a whole bunch of IM’s out there, and the “talent” can be getting spread thin. In my mind, it’s just a “thing”—not a good thing necessarily or a bad thing…just a thing.
IMO it is a good thing because the slower times and the higher participation rate shows that triathlon is influencing healthy lifestyle choices in many average joe’s. Although IM is arguably not that good for your body and is “slightly” overkill, it is highly likely that many of the people that have been inspired to try IM have made permanent changes to their lifestyle and generally increased their physical activity.
I’ll have to say, that I’m a proud three time 16 hour +Ironman finisher - Please let me know if I can still call myself an Ironman. Would not want to “offend” the “real” Ironman by calling myself an Ironman with my slow finish times.
By the way, can I still call myself a triathlete even though I have never finished gotton an award in any of the 150 triathlons I have finished?
Z
Right on, Newbie…Go to hell Fleck & Record. I am usually a frontrunner in my age group, and HATE pricks like Fleck & Record who think they can take something away from anyone else’s accomplishment. If they want the t-shirt, tattoos, etc. let them have it. They have done what few have. Good for them. You should embrace & welcome newcomers to the sport, and be proud of it. If you indeed are a frontrunner (as you make it sound from your posts), you should be proud, and help pass on your knowledge to those that may be lacking, not chastising them because you think you are better.
I completed IM AZ Saturday. My time wasn’t great, but when I finished, I knew there were more than half the field out there, still gutting it out in (what I considered) horrible conditions (crappy course, dusty run, etc.). These people are the true athletes. If you had half the heart they had, you wouldn’t be making moronic posts such as yours.
Do you know Fleck or Record? Fleck is someone who has always given back to the sport of triathlon and applauds people of all levels. I am surprised by your post. This is generally a forum of people helping and encouraging each other. I believe I speak for many when I say please refrain from this type of trash talk.
P.S. I applaud you on finishing IM Arizona and welcome to the slowtwitch forum.
Some of the posts here have been very insightful, and Fleck, as a fellow Cdn, thanks for stirring the pot a little.
HOWEVER, Record10Carbon, have you ever read the interviews from the likes of Peter Reid, Natascha Badmann? They always express their utmost respect for the average triathlete, and their gratefulness for being able to be healthy enough, and blessed to do what they do (ie race and entertain us with their abilities due to the PARTICIPATION and ENTRY FEES of your “IM Idiot”). So, until you’re standing atop the podium at Kona, take your elitest crap and shove it.
The ‘real’ bunch of pros are all in the 8.40 to 9.00 area.
Faris was more the outlier there. He was 3rd in Kona and I had bet before the race he would crush the field.
The same thing happened in NZ this year with Cam Brown winning by 20’ or so. Most fields do not have a top3-5 IMH finisher. Other guys like Harju, Lieto, Marques, Lovato etc. are very fast, but not in the same league (yet anyway).
At IM Germany, the gap is not obvious because the field is much deeper.
of course that doesn’t contradict what you just said…
Took the words right out of my mouth with the marathon analogy, but here is something else to consider…
TNT and other mass participation outlets pad the total participation numbers and slow down the average finishing time when we crunch the numbers. However, the massive growth in the “back-of-the-pack” participation numbers does not fully explain the death of the “fast-recreational” runner. These trends are concurrent but is there a causal relationship? I think there may be some cause and effect relationship here, but in general I believe these are two semi-independent trends within a broader trend of slowing race times. It is hard to achieve extreme precision in analyzing IM times, but going by feel it seems Fleck is seeing a slowing trend near the front of IM pack analogous to what is happening in marathoning with the current abyss in the 2:30-2:50 range.
I think all of us whether fast/slow, old/young, skinny/fat, man/woman, etc. admire those who use multisport to turn around a sedentary lifestyle. But the fact remains that the finishers in the top 5-25% of endurance races are getting slower than the “old days” when training knowledge and equipment were far less advanced. Participation numbers are critical to the sport, but the standards for what it takes to be “front of the pack” are being lowered. Yes, part of it is from increased race opportunities. However, it is sad to look at the old time results of my local city marathon and see the field loaded in the 2:25-2:45 range with local/regional runners. Now I have to latch onto one of the local college teams if there is any hope of fast training partners. The fast recreational athlete is an endangered species.
http://www.signonsandiego.com/uniontrib/20050225/news_lz1s25fitnes.html
Running coach Kevin McCarey says many of today’s athletes are ‘soft’
By Don Norcross
STAFF WRITER
February 25, 2005
Mission Bay High's dirt track offered no lights, but that didn't faze Kevin McCarey. Wanting to coach some top-level runners for evening track workouts, McCarey bought four Coleman lanterns and stands, propped the lanterns at the turns and illuminated the track.
That was 19 years ago. Since then McCarey has coached or supervised running workouts for world-class athletes ranging from triathletes Mark Allen, Paula Newby-Fraser, Michellie Jones and Greg Welch to distance runners Fatuma Roba, Meb Keflezighi and Deena Kastor.
But not this winter. Frustrated by a lack of quality runners and a perceived lack of commitment by some of his athletes, McCarey stopped coaching his popular Tuesday night track workouts this winter.
“I quit because I didn’t see effort any more,” McCarey said. “Nobody wants to put their nose down. Nobody wants to sweat. The typical athlete today is a total whiner.”
McCarey, 50, grew up in the Bronx, and was infamous for pushing his body through painful workouts. One example: in high school he’d run 32 440-yard repeats, the splits aimed at 69 seconds. He’d try to break 60 seconds on the last interval.
“Usually,” he said, “I could do it.”
A former 2:13 marathoner, McCarey earned a scholarship to Villanova where he ran with Eamonn Coghlan. (He later named his son Eamonn.)
In 2000, McCarey coached five women who qualified for the U.S. Olympic marathon trials. Three more of his athletes either qualified for track and field trials or the Olympics for another country.
“That was about the best time,” he said.
But as those athletes have aged there have been few runners to supplant them at the elite level. He blames a lazy lifestyle among America’s youth for the lack of star runners.
“Our youth, they’ve gotten soft,” he said. “They spend too much time in front of Nintendo and computers. They don’t even want to go for a hike anymore. Parents are so busy propping their kids in front of the TV, giving them McDonald’s and letting 'em veg.”
Joking about the slipping quality of his own runners, McCarey said, “One day I looked at my stopwatch. If they’d have been running any slower I would have had to use a sun dial. I knew I had to go. It was bad.”
Coaching represents a passion for McCarey. He works full-time as a massage therapist, charged a nominal fee ($20 a month for as many as eight sessions) and many runners who attended his sessions never paid.
“I never wanted somebody not to be out there because they couldn’t afford $5,” said McCarey.
Said Tamara Lave, a two-time Olympic marathon trials qualifier who has trained with McCarey for years: “I think he feels a bit underappreciated. By that, I don’t mean he’s being a baby and feeling sorry for himself. It’s a big sacrifice to go (to the track) every week, every month, every year.”
McCarey still coaches a group of top-level runners on Saturday mornings at Mission Bay. He was moved last weekend when 20 runners showed up for a workout in the rain.
“There are still some people that have a passion,” he said.
Just not enough of them.
“I think he feels like the spark isn’t there,” Lave said. “I think it’s sort of like a long marriage. The honeymoon phase is over.”
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Your language is simply out of line. I understand you’ve been on this forum for less than one month, but please try to convey your opinion in a more polite way. Also Fleck and Record10ti are frequent contributors here, so show a little respect.
Your morning is slow.
I think it’s great that more people are participating in the sport.
With you and record10’s posts, you feed the trend and premise that being “fast” is the most important aspect of entering an Ironman or any triathlon for that matter.
What ever happened to doing it because one is brave enough to fork over the money, time and effort? Is that not important anymore?
Regarding IMAZ-- I finished and can attest that the bike was brutal. Tough winds-head winds for a lot of the time–cross winds where I saw a girl riding a disc wheel skidding sideways from the wind riding over the bridge above the lake.
Not surprising that the times where slower-the bike course had so many turns in it that prevented people from going quicker–and the pros had to fight through age groupers–many times I saw age groupers passing someone(correctly I might add) but the pros come up so quickly that even an age grouper performing a legal pass got in their way.
It was kinda cool to watch those guys negotiate some of the turns
The winner remarked at the event that the winds riveled Kona. Having rode the bike course at Kona, I would say the speed and intensity was the same-but atleast at IMAZ the direction was pretty constant-the cross wind gusts varried in intensity-always strong though–where in KONA the wind never really seems to pick a direction
To the post that was perceived as elitest I say this.
Don’t be that guy, the guy that puts people down…One of the cool things about triathlon has been peoples attitudes, about pulling for each other. Recently unfortunately, I’ve seen attitude begin to creep into the IM races. Its unfortunate.
Anyone who starts and finishes an Ironman is just that, an Ironman. Don’t ever lose sight of how hard this race is. Its damn hard!!!
Anyone who ever finishes no matter what time should feel a sense of accomplishment like no other!!!
Again, IMAZ course was a tough course and because of the wind on both the bike and run was very difficult.
And by the way, when driving to the event on race morning, I noticed above on the freeway the sign that alerted us to a pollution advisory.
anyway, thats my two cents
to anyone who joined the IM club, welcome…you have done something great!
Brian286,
Opinion vs. Observation. What Fleck stated in his post is just observation. No need to get excited. No where does he pass judgement on the MOP’ers. If you must know, he thinks very highly of everyone at all levels.
Go to hell Fleck & Record.
Someone said this to me yesterday as I sometimes misinterpret what people are saying here:
“Lighten up and go for a ride”
Fleck has provided tremendous advice on this forum.
I do agree with record though on the tatoo thing - that is a bit over the top IMO, but to each his own.
Mine was an observation as well. I’m not upset, don’t have my pants in a wad or on a mission to berate anyone publically.
I don’t doubt that he thinks highly of all levels of athletes. However, to tie a time to whether or not someone is successful and put it in a way makes it seem demeaning only fuels the trend of people asking “what was your time?” when asking someone about their rather rather than “are you happy with your race?”
Everyone is lumping Fleck and Record together. Why? Fleck made a series of legitimate observations. Record just shot his mouth off, spewing some elitist crap about who gets to call himself an Ironman. I can’t address past posts but nothing in the content or tone of Record’s post today deserve respect. No need to tell him to go to hell. Agreed. But not need to show him any respect, either.
Frank