If I use PC's exclusively in training and race on RC's could I really improve my sustainable power by over 56% in six months?

Triathlon Forum
1

Dear all

Without wanting to start the next world war, again, I am thinking of buying a set of RC’s and PC’s off ebay, so no 2 month moneyback guarantee period! I understand the theoretical science behind these two types of cranks but do they really work?

PC’s state “The typical cyclist/triathlete can increase power on the bicycle 40% (that’s 2-3 mph faster on the road for most) in 6 months and the typical runner can take 20 minutes off their marathon time in less than 3 months. Further, it seems that second year improvement can be just as dramatic, if not more so”

RC’s state “that Rotor achieves a real increase in power of up to 16% (equivalent to an average advantage of 3 minutes in an hour), as well as a reduction in lactic acid and cardiac effort”

If I use PC’s exclusively in training and race on RC’s could I really improve my sustainable power by over 56% in six months?

I have always believed if it seems to good to be true it probably is but both companies do make compelling arguments

Thanks AndyA

2

It might be possible if you started with a rather poor pedal stroke.

PC’s improved my power, cadence and my running. 56% is a lot to expect though. 5% would be more realistic.

3

If I get the best tools and equipment:

PC=56%, RC=16%, Aero fork=2 min(for 40 km TT), Aerobar=2min, Front deep wheel + Rear Disc=3 min, Aero frame=1-2min, Aero bottle=0.5min, Aero helmet… I’m shure I can improve my 25 year old PB with at least 50%, my new 50km PB will be approx 36minutes.

4

With enough theoretical added benefits from all the various sources, you could get to the finish line before you even start!

In my limited experience, being a better than average rider to start with, I picked up over 1 mph on the bike in a 10 mile circular time trial after being on PC’s for 8 months. My run speed increased in the first two weeks, though, and continued to increase for quite a while. The combination faster bike and much faster run was obvious for me. This past week in a triathlon, I had one of the fastest bike splits, and a fellow competitor asked “What did you do over the winter, quit your day job?” He used to beat me pretty soundly on the bike, I put 2-3 minutes on him in 15 miles.

That said, I do think RC’s will improve your efficiency enough to show improvements in your speed on the bike. Whether you could run faster, or the same as usual after riding RC’s, I don’t know. I am going to combine my PC training with RC racing, and see if I get more speed while at least maintaining my run speed. According to the only other person I know that has done this, RC adaptation takes a very short time, and I should be able to race on them very soon.

I wouldn’t be afraid of buying PC’s without the benefit of the money back guarantee…you just need to make sure they are not damaged…and be prepared to be humbled and to go through lots of pain for a while! I haven’t received my RC’s yet, so I can’t comment on them from an experienced point of view, but, I will say, you will have to train some on RC’s before racing them…I really doubt you can just jump on them and gain a minute in a 40K TT, but, I don’t think it would take long (perhaps only a week, according to reports I’ve had from others) before you see some increase in TT speed.

5

AndyA,

If you get the PCs be prepared to suck for the first month. It has taken about 2 1/2 months for me to work up the endurance in my hip flexors to go 60 miles on PCs. The first month though, it really sucks. You just cannot go very far on them and it isn’t very comfortable in the saddle. If you make it past the 1st month though it really starts to get better.

I ride exclusively using PCs right now. I ride with the roadies on Tues/Thurs and then with a bunch of Tri-heads on Saturday. The other days when I ride, it is usually by myself. I have gotten to the point now where I am really pretty comfortable in the saddle using them. I can stand at will (extremely hard to master in the beginning) and even pedal no handed.

IMO the best time to start using PCs is at the end of the season. That way you can dedicate time to using them without the temptation to switch back. I know 3 people who have them, but have switched back to regular cranks so that they could get longer rides in. I would say they only gave PCs about a month and half of use before switching back. IMO for most people the body cannot adapt to using them in that time frame plus you really don’t start to get comfortable until the 2nd month.

When I ride with the roadies, they often freak out when they are behind me. They cannot get use to the occasional one-legged spin or duel leg drop that I might do during the ride. I have definitely gotten a lot of attention using them and a ton of questions.

6

AndyA,

If your present level of exercise consists of laying on the couch and operating the TV remote, the PC’s and RC’s can surely improve your performance by at least 56%. However, as others have indicated, if your level of fitness is already well above the sedentary level, your benefit level will be far below 56%.

I had hoped that perhaps yaquicarbo would have tried to put a quantitative percentage number on what he felt his improvement was. A 1 mph improvement on an average speed of 17 mph is quite a bit larger than a 1 mph improvement on an average speed of 24 mph. It did appear that he had considerable experience with PC’s and was an excellent source of information.

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Scott, They are coming in today via Fedex this morning from Madrid
.

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I would estimate a noticeable gain in speed, about 2 or 3 minutes per hour faster, with the Rotor system.

Based on my experience, It will take perhaps one ride to adapt, and a few hundred miles before you really start to notice the benefits. Even middle of the pack AG triathletes that use the system report back significant gains in speed and efficiency, and notice that their running does not suffer but instead they feel a bit more fresh heading into T2.

I found two set of Power Cranks on Ebay, but no Rotor Cranks. Which model are you looking at buying on Ebay?

9

I will buy some PC’s ( a 5% improvement on the bike will take me sub 5 hours for IM and an improved run is a big bonus) but I will take some more convincing regarding the RC’s as I have a lovely aerodynamic pair of MC’s ( see http://home.intekom.com/murraytourdeforce/cranks.htm ) for racing on.

I know the two cranks are said to complement each other but if the PC’s do their job then surely the RC’s won’t be nearly such an advantage?

I spoke to your good selves at PC a couple of times regarding an aerodynamic carbon PC but I understand their are no plans for any such crank? What we want is a crankset that looks like MC’s, behaves like RC’s, can be used in training as PC’s and weighs the same as LC’s ( see http://www.lightningbikes.com/Cranks%20of%20Carbon.htm )!!!

Why don’t you all form an alliance and dominate the industry??

Cheers AndyA

10

The 40% power improvement claim is on average. Some see more and some see less but, if you use them right, everyone will see improvement.

Others here say that if you are already trained you cannot expect anywhere near these numbers. Baloney. Phil Holman, an experienced track cyclist improved his top speed from 35 to 38 mph and his pursuit from 30 to 32 mph in 7 months and won a bronze medal at world masters track competition. This calculates to only 28% and 21% power improvement. But, then goatboay improved his speed from 20 to 25 mph in 1 year (and to 27 mph in 2 years) which calculates to a 95% and 146% power increases. So everyone is different.

The key to attaining such cycling improvement though is staying the course. They must be use pretty much exclusively for that entire period (it is ok to race on regular cranks). Those who can’t see the forest for the trees and won’t or can’t make the commitment will be disappointed with the PC result. They would be happier with RC’s as those require no dedication or ego hit. It appears, however, that the advantages of both systems may be additive, but only if you put the time and effort into the PC’s.

Is the best time to start them in the off season? Perhaps not? Because, it seems, it doesn’t take a dedication to the PC’s to see the running improvement, and most new users seem to think the running improvements are more dramatic than the cycling improvement (probably because it comes sooner). So, those who go back to regular cranks don’t see the big cycling improvements but they do see running improvement and that improvement occurs quickly (usually starts being seen in two weeks). If that is your main focus or you are afraid to dedicate yourself to the cranks during the season to see the cycling improvement this season, there is still a big benefit to starting them now, if you are a triathlete. The longer you wait to start the more time you lose that you could be getting better.

Oh, and for those posting here who don’t understand the difference between power and speed. A 10% increase in power does not mean a 10% drop in time or, even, a 10% increase in speed. Power increases with the cube of the speed. It takes a big power increase to see a relatively small speed increases.

Frank

11

Have PC’s or RC’s ever been tested by anyone in
the 4K or 3K track pursuit where conditions never
change and improvements could be easily detected.

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AndyA,

The aeordynamic carbon cranks will have to wait until we see how the more aerodynamic lightweight aluminum cranks go. There are many more problems associated with doing a carbon crank and the weight savings will be small (Insignificant, for all practical purposes) as I can’t get rid of the metal supporting and needed by the clutch (as carbon isn’t strong or hard enough), at least I haven’t figured out how. My first try at a carbon crank didn’t go as well as I had hoped so I decided to go aluminum first, as it was doable with current manufacturing techniques and answered a need expressed by many now.

Frank

13

Phil Holman did 7 months of pretty much exclusive training on the PC’s and increased his pursuit (2K I believe at his age) speed from 30 to 32 mph. As I indicated above, that calculates to a 21% power Improvement.

Other track riders have reported improvement but I am not aware of actual numbers. Phils numbers are pretty good as he was not a believer but agreed to use them “properly” and report on his findings for the news group several years ago.

14

Thanks for the input

I will give it six months and report back on the PC’s, let me know if that alliance is ever formed!

AndyA

15

Ben, To give you more precise information; I had been doing club time trials 3-5 times a year at Lowe’s Motor Speedway for a couple of years before PC training…fastest time I got was the upper 23 mph range. Started PCs on December 20th, 2002. In August 2003, I was finally able to do the Lowe’s Motor Speedway time trial. First, you must know I had done my longest ever PC ride of 68 miles on August 9th, I also ran my “extra-long” run course of 8 miles on August 10th, rode again August 12th to recover from my long run, and on August 13th did 25.05mph at the time trial.

I gave you all that information to demonstrate that I certainly didn’t try and “peak” for this time trial. Actually, I was just using the TT for a workout, and still had my best time ever by well over 1 mph. August 13th was hot in Charlotte, too. Typical conditions for that area. I really hoped to get to race that Lowe’s TT several times over the season, but work always got in the way, or it rained, or something. I don’t know if I would have even greater improvement if I would have been rested or peaked for the event as I had done at times in the past.

However, I can tell you my average speed during a particular triathlon (Lake Norman) was 23.4mph on a hilly 18.1 mile course, followed by a 20:57 5K, on August 23rd, 2003. The years before, the best I think I had done at Lake Norman was less than 22 mph followed by a 24-something run. It was the difference between being an also-ran for several years, and second place last year. The only difference was PC training. I also did a duathlon where I made a wrong turn and had to retrace to get back on course, and I still had the second fastest bike split…the fastest bike split was by a fellow 15 years younger than me, and a state duathlon champ. (I ended up 6th, overall, I think, and won the Master’s division).

I’ve been riding and racing since the early 80’s, and never was good at time trialing, even when I was young, I don’t think I ever broke 24 mph in a time trial, but, I had success in managing pack riding and would usually win the sprint. PC’s are the “real deal” as far as I am concerned.

But, I think RC’s will increase speed by taking advantage of a biomechanical efficiency enjoyed by the extensors near the middle of their range of motion. If my thinking is correct, the typical rider that doesn’t at least unweight the rising foot would see a power increase with RC’s, as the extensor’s best efficiency range is utilized to get that rising foot up. And since a PC-trained rider already can pick the rising foot up, all of the extensor’s efficiency advantage will be used to provide more power to the downstroke. Either way, PC trained, or not, I think RC’s will work…with minimal adaptation required.

I can hardly wait to find out!

16

I look forward to hearing about your RC experience. Just don’t stop training on the PC’s. I think there are several more years of improvement yet to go. I only wonder if the RC’s will offer the same advantage 4-5 years from now when you are fully trained PC style. I am not so sure the advantage will stay or be as large, although it could be.

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Dr. Day, I certainly don’t think I’ve come close to achieving the maximum benefits available from PC training. Although I’m faster biking and running, and especially running after biking, I think it would take many more years of PC training for me to get the maximum benefits. Right now, I don’t think I’m doing much more than “unweighting the see-saw”, I think there is a lot more available for me to achieve by continuing PC training.

Sure, I can now pick up the rising system enough to add power to the stroke by pulling up for periods of time (after all, just about anyone can for short periods of time), but, I don’t know the exact quantity of power I can provide compared to when I started. However, I do know I can now at least lift the system (un-weight the see-saw) for periods of time by a factor of about 20 compared to 1.5 years ago, i.e., I could pull up for 1 minute when I first started PC training, and I can now do it for 20 minutes before I fail, that’s how I arrive at a factor of 20. And I recover much more quickly after my failure at 20 minutes (30 seconds to 1 minute recovery time) than I needed after a failure when I first started (1-2 minutes recovery time) 1.5 years ago.

And 68 miles is as far as I’ve ever gone on PC’s. If I had the time to train at the volumes some people do, I think I would have even more improvement by now. I envy the people that have that kind of time. But, for me, working out and racing is a matter of maximum benefits in the fewest hours. I THINK I’m doing this in the right order…PC training first; but, there really isn’t a good way to know. Maybe it doesn’t matter, as long as PC adaptation is done at some point. PC’s pointed out obvious flaws in my pedal stroke, flaws that I would not have otherwise known to exist. I’ve made a good start on the way to the correction of those flaws by training on PCs. I’ve still got a long way to go. So, if I ever wear out my current set of PC’s (which will take a long time at my low yearly mileage) I’ll be getting more. As I said before, PC’s are the real deal…at least in my case…and the results speak for themselves.

I believe RC’s will improve my speed, and look forward to finding out how much. I have no idea how to make it work, short of an eccentric bottom bracket axle in combination with your clutch system, but the resulting PowerRotorCrank or RotorPowerCrank device might be the best of both worlds…think of maximizing the extensor’s biomechanical advantage in the midrange of motion with at least removing all of the rising crankarm system weight!

This idea is why I think PC training and RC racing go together. RC’s don’t teach a rider to do what PC training teaches. But, PC’s don’t have a way to take advantage of the extensor’s potentially greater efficiencies corresponding to the approximately 1:30-4:30 o’ Clock range of motion on the downstroke. However, a PC-trained rider adapted to RC’s should be able to do just that…get the best of both worlds…and the improvements should be additive to one another.

I should be getting a handle on how much improvement I get from RC’s from the races I’ll be doing this year, but, a return to a mostly predictable set of conditions like found at the Lowe’s TT is a decent test, one that I hope I can do at least once later this year.

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I think it would be really cool (and, maybe, worthwhile to all the lurkers here) if you could do those Lowes speedway TT’s on both devices on the same day. Maybe one time on PC’s first and the next on RC’s first, both at the same effort. Then we might have a sense of how much of your improvements are due to each device, as I am sure there will be improvements. The “scientists” here wouldn’t put much stock in this “test” but I think those of us “in the know” would be able to make some sense of the results.

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yaquicarbo,

Thank you for your follow up reply and all your precise information. And congratulations on your performance on your “training” TT.

The additional information you provided was very helpful to me for determining what actual benefit I might expect to achieve by using PC’s. Your pre PC cycling level seems very close to my present level. The pre race/TT exercise level you described was helpful to point out that you did not really taper for the TT and the impact that had on your performance.

I do not run, however. I ran competitively from junior high school through college and as a result am somewhat “burned out” on running. But that was how I discovered swimming and cycling. The run benefits of PC’s would be something I would miss.

I am curious, though, for someone who did regular single leg peddling drills as a regular part of training, would the cycling benefits of PC’s be minimized? Perhaps you or Tom D. had a regular training regimen that included single leg peddling drills before using PC’s. It would be hard to argue that you did not benefit from training on PC’s.

It certainly appears, at least from your experience, that PC’s are “the real deal.” Do you continue to train on PC’s? Is all your training on them? When you race, do you race on PC’s or on regular cranks?

Thank you again and congratulations on your improvements!

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Ben, I used to do single leg pedalling exercises, but, I could never do them for long, nor at “normal” rpms, and I would get bored after 15-20 minutes of attempting it anyway. But, I did do it in the offseason or when on a trainer. It just wasn’t even close to PC riding, at least the way I was doing it.

I continue to train most of the time on PC’s. You have to realize, thats almost always less than 100 miles in a week. Usually, I only get to ride 50-75 a week. 68 miles is my furthest PC ride, although, I may break that later today…I have the day off. If it wipes me out, though, I’ll cut it shorter, I’m still recovering from a race I did Sunday, and I have another this Saturday. I know running doesn’t interest you, but, that’s another benefit of PC training…I won’t have to run this week…maybe just once for a couple of fast miles (relatively speaking), and that’s it…no worrying about losing running form when I do a good PC ride that week. On Friday, I’ll get out my TT bike and ride 10-20 miles mostly easy with a few hard pushes, and the whole time try to concentrate on imitating my PC stroke as much as I can.

Since I cannot stay in the aero position on PC’s, and most of my races have long sections of flat ground, I don’t trust myself to be able to keep up top speed, so I haven’t raced on my PC’s…However, I should have in the first race I did this year…it’s a brand new race, it was only 9 miles, and it had essentially NO flats…it would have been perfect for me and PC riding as I am always faster on PC’s uphill.

For someone with relatively little time to train each week, I don’t think I’ve come close to reaching the potential PC-type pedalling can offer…especially since I can’t maintain real good aero positioning for long sections. I think that position is possible with further PC training. On the other hand, on a hilly Ironman course, like Duke Blue Devil, I have no doubt I could PC that course just fine, because I’d be in a much more upright position for neck comfort anyway on such a long ride.

The thing is, on regular cranks, as long as you are PC pedalling, you should be just as efficient. The problem is determining if you are PC pedalling on regular cranks…there’s no feedback to tell you if you are, indeed, lifting enough. On PC’s there is no question if you missed picking up during a stroke.

I think it is a little like golf…if you’ve had a swing that usually results in a slice, but you learn to swing correctly from the inside out by using a device that requires you to tuck your elbow in just before impact so that you hit it straight, or even hit a slight draw, you have to practice that new stroke thousands of times to imprint it over your old slice swing. When you remove the device that requires you to bring that elbow in at the right time, but were blindfolded so you couldn’t see the results of your shot, you wouldn’t really know if the ball flight was correct or not…so, did you tuck your arm too tight…causing a hook, let it fly a little so the ball faded, etc.?

It’s not always apparent on regular cranks when you start to fail at the PC stroke, and when I’m fresh, I may actually be pulling up more than I need to on regular cranks…resulting in a premature fatiguing of my minimally adapted PC muscles…so I’ll be failing in performing my PC stroke sooner than usual. When I’m tired, I may think I’m getting a good PC stroke on regular cranks, but, I don’t really know unless I think about it enough to feel my foot lifting in my shoe a bit.

I think RotorCranks will provide better downstroke efficiency. I’ve been mostly training my upstroke efficiency with PC’s. I think the effects of both will be additive, as long as I can unweight the rising pedal of the Rotors…since the rising pedal will be moving slightly faster than the downstroke crank, it will be a challenge, but, all I have to do is to unweight it more than I could pre-PC training, and I should be even faster on Rotors than if I had not had PC training.

We’ll see!