Hypoxic tents and epo

Triathlon Forum
1

Just watched a video of a pro triathlete, could be anyone really, it is not important and he was using an hypoxic tent which is exactly as training at altitude which is viewed by everyone as fine. However the goal is to produce more EPO “naturally” and increase hematocrit.

But without being a bunch of hypocrites… How is it really different than injecting EPO with a syringe?

I know you can over use the injections and increase the hct way over the normals and cause blood clots and strokes but hypoxic tents and injections in a controlled manner is going to give the same results and dangers.

So why is it that hypoxic tents are still legal? I know there’s the whole debate that those living at altitude would be at an advantage but then again, why is EPO in a controlled setting illegal? Essentially, it all is the same.

Thoughts?

2

I know you can over use the injections and increase the hct way over the normals and cause blood clots and strokes but hypoxic tents and injections in a controlled manner is going to give the same results and dangers.

If you truly believe that epo injections and hypoxic tents have the same risks (blood clots, strokes, etc), then you are woefully uneducated.

John

3

Just watched a video of a pro triathlete, could be anyone really, it is not important and he was using an hypoxic tent which is exactly as training at altitude which is viewed by everyone as fine. However the goal is to produce more EPO “naturally” and increase hematocrit.

But without being a bunch of hypocrites… How is it really different than injecting EPO with a syringe?

I know you can over use the injections and increase the hct way over the normals and cause blood clots and strokes but hypoxic tents and injections in a controlled manner is going to give the same results and dangers.

So why is it that hypoxic tents are still legal? I know there’s the whole debate that those living at altitude would be at an advantage but then again, why is EPO in a controlled setting illegal? Essentially, it all is the same.

Thoughts?

Using a altitude tent is considered doping in some countries like Norway and if you use it you will be banned from all sport and organized training for 2 years.
So it is not legal everywhere.

4

Really? I did not know that.

What was the reasoning and process behind the decision?

5

I know you can over use the injections and increase the hct way over the normals and cause blood clots and strokes but hypoxic tents and injections in a controlled manner is going to give the same results and dangers.

If you truly believe that epo injections and hypoxic tents have the same risks (blood clots, strokes, etc), then you are woefully uneducated.

John
I do not like your woeful attitude, looks like your momma didn’t educate you properly. Now if you would come with facts and data instead of insults to push this somewhat debate forward maybe I would have been interested in learning more, I am not a pharmacist or a doctor, sure I’m aware the risks are different but I created this thread to learn and discuss, not to be ridiculed by some random idiot with no class.

And uh, thanks halvard, I add no idea, it is very interesting. Just seems to further my thoughts, but on the other hand those living at altitude do end up with a known advantage.

6

Essentially, it all is the same.

Thoughts?

Far from it. A hypoxic tent simulates altitude when you can’t live at altitude. Why do you think so many pro endurance athletes live at altitude (hello Boulder)? Living at altitude, in a hypoxic tent, assists the body in producing more natural EPO.

Synthetic EPO is not natural. It has serious, harmful, sometimes fatal, side effects.

7

But without being a bunch of hypocrites…

To a degree, the line between what is legal performance enhancing and illegal performance enhancing can be somewhat arbitrary.

As noted, tent is illegal in some countries, but as far as I know, it is 100% legal to live at altitude. Pretty minor difference there.

Several over the counter medications contain banned substances, even though their performance enhancement might be limited or non-existent. Meanwhile caffeine is clearly documented to have a significant performance enhancement and it is generally fine.

I am not saying we should all be shooting up, only that there is some area where things are arbitrary and hypocritical. OK to have a bag of mass produced saline inserted into yourself for recovery, not OK to have a bag of your own blood inserted into your body for recovery.

People making the rules don’t have an easy job or an easy justification in my opinion.

8

Using a altitude tent is considered doping in some countries like Norway and if you use it you will be banned from all sport and organized training for 2 years.
So it is not legal everywhere.

Those Norwegians are tough. Not very logical, but tough.

9

I know you can over use the injections and increase the hct way over the normals and cause blood clots and strokes but hypoxic tents and injections in a controlled manner is going to give the same results and dangers.

If you truly believe that epo injections and hypoxic tents have the same risks (blood clots, strokes, etc), then you are woefully uneducated.

John
I do not like your woeful attitude, looks like your momma didn’t educate you properly. Now if you would come with facts and data instead of insults to push this somewhat debate forward maybe I would have been interested in learning more, I am not a pharmacist or a doctor, sure I’m aware the risks are different but I created this thread to learn and discuss, not to be ridiculed by some random idiot with no class.

Synthetic EPO can be hard to control, and causes the body to overproduce RBC’s despite what the O2 saturation in the blood would normally dictate. This can lead to “thick” blood, which coupled with the low heart rates in many athletes can cause strokes and clot problems. When people use EPO at a “professional” level, they also use saline and other artificial thinners to reduce this risk. Yes, a general layperson could do it, but it’s more difficult and easy to mess up.

Natural reactions limit the amount of production, as it’s related to the O2 saturation in the blood that stimulates natural increased production.

The other factor is that unless you need EPO because of disease/injury, etc., if you take EPO for an extended period, it can affect the ability of the person to produce their own EPO after they stop taking the artificial EPO.

And, of course, it goes to the moral argument of PED’s in the first place. You could argue (As some of the Scandinavian countries evidently do, I had not known that about Norway) that altitude tents are the same, but the safety effects are what makes the difference in most places. Your body will self regulate where it can’t with artificial EPO.

John

10

I remember hearing once that it was idea to recover at altitude but be able to train at lower altitude. I assumed this allowed the adaptive responses to altitude living, but you were able to perform higher training loads due to higher O2 concentrations at lower altitudes.

With this thought an altitude tent could be more beneficial then training and living at high altitude.

11

Essentially, it all is the same.

Thoughts?

Far from it. A hypoxic tent simulates altitude when you can’t live at altitude. Why do you think so many pro endurance athletes live at altitude (hello Boulder)? Living at altitude, in a hypoxic tent, assists the body in producing more natural EPO.

Synthetic EPO is not natural. It has serious, harmful, sometimes fatal, side effects.

The point you are getting at is correct, but what you said is not really correct. The “synthetic” factor has essentially nothing to do with health and safety. Any synthetic recombinant protein hormone can also be produced by protein purification processes giving you a natural hormone. It is just considerably more time and labor consuming to do so. Whether synthetic or natural, over abundance of exogenous EPO can lead to hematocrit levels that are at unhealthy, even fatal levels. This is also not technically a side effect as the hormone is acting on the receptor that it is intended to act upon yielding the specific physiological response. A side effect would be a response due to acting somewhere other than the EPO receptor.

12

One applies a stimulus to the body that generates a response according to the individual.

One applies the response independent of the individual.

No difference?

13

Wouldn’t it take years or generations of living at a high altitude for your body to “adjust” or produce more natural EPO? Or is this kind of training (living) at high altitude a waste of time.

Just curious.

14

Using a altitude tent is considered doping in some countries like Norway and if you use it you will be banned from all sport and organized training for 2 years.
So it is not legal everywhere.

Those Norwegians are tough. Not very logical, but tough.

Why should you let those poor countries with no mountains be able to mimic the same sort of training? I say good on Norway, all countries should press their advantage, either having places to train at altitude or the money to send their athletes to train in those places.

15

Using a altitude tent is considered doping in some countries like Norway and if you use it you will be banned from all sport and organized training for 2 years.
So it is not legal everywhere.

Those Norwegians are tough. Not very logical, but tough.

Altitude tent/house.chamber was banned in 2003. Oxygen masks too.
The reason behind was to take away the gray areas.
Looking at the results, especially in winter endurance sports. Norwegians are doing OK with no tents and a country with no high mountains.
You can come a long way with training and an supportive endurance culture.

This is from the women’s 30k race in 2011. This is outside the main stadium.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0WbfZjsl0JQ

16

Essentially, it all is the same.

Thoughts?

Far from it. A hypoxic tent simulates altitude when you can’t live at altitude. Why do you think so many pro endurance athletes live at altitude (hello Boulder)? Living at altitude, in a hypoxic tent, assists the body in producing more natural EPO.

Synthetic EPO is not natural. It has serious, harmful, sometimes fatal, side effects.

Yes, a hypoxia tent stimulates natural EPO, but through an artificial means.

Personally, I think they should be banned, but since they aren’t, athletes are free to use them and it is certainly not cheating.

Just my $.02.

17

Wouldn’t it take years or generations of living at a high altitude for your body to “adjust” or produce more natural EPO? Or is this kind of training (living) at high altitude a waste of time.

Just curious.

No, your body turns over it’s entire RBC supply in ~ 6 weeks, IIRC. Altitude effects take on the order of weeks to a couple months to adapt.

John

18

Essentially, it all is the same.

Thoughts?

Far from it. A hypoxic tent simulates altitude when you can’t live at altitude. Why do you think so many pro endurance athletes live at altitude (hello Boulder)? Living at altitude, in a hypoxic tent, assists the body in producing more natural EPO.

Synthetic EPO is not natural. It has serious, harmful, sometimes fatal, side effects.

The point you are getting at is correct, but what you said is not really correct. The “synthetic” factor has essentially nothing to do with health and safety. Any synthetic recombinant protein hormone can also be produced by protein purification processes giving you a natural hormone. It is just considerably more time and labor consuming to do so. Whether synthetic or natural, over abundance of exogenous EPO can lead to hematocrit levels that are at unhealthy, even fatal levels. This is also not technically a side effect as the hormone is acting on the receptor that it is intended to act upon yielding the specific physiological response. A side effect would be a response due to acting somewhere other than the EPO receptor.

+1 There is a distinction. EPO is a useful medical treatment option. Whether natural or synthetic, there isn’t much difference except in maybe the efficacious dosage. -J

19

Altitude tent/house.chamber was banned in 2003. Oxygen masks too.

I assume they also banned use of any form of home heating and/or cooling to simulate other natural environments? Wouldn’t want people to be tempted into those “gray areas” to get ready for competition someplace hotter or colder than Norway. (Is there any place colder?)

20

Thanks for answering that.
It does not take long to see chronic effects from altitude. If it did, no one would be able to climb Everest without being at base camp for years.