Hydrodynamics vs. flutter kicking

Triathlon Forum
1

Everywhere I’ve looked, flutter kicking is recommended.
So, I started kicking and trying hard to get better. Yet, I
have yet to hear about hydrodynamics.
in my opinion:

(-) hydrodynamics supercedes everything.
(-) turbulence impedes hydro(and aero) dynamics.
(-) flutter kicking causes turbulance.

I am trying to create my own swimming style.
My current style is that my arms are like turbo jets, and my
kicking is like a lawn mower. So, the turbulance created by
my kicking might just not be worth it.

2

Your logic is clearly impeccable. We must all stop kicking immediately.

3

There are a few reasons for flutter kicking:
-Propulsion
-Body position
-Body rotation

  1. The propulsion part comes into play more for pool swimmers than open water swimmers and triathletes. In order to get better propulsion,you have to kick faster, which drains energy faster. The 2-beat kick is the most commonly recommended kick for open water distance swimming. You’re not kicking very fast, so propulsion isn’t very good, but it helps with the other two parts:
  2. You want to kick to aid your body position. Kicking, when done correctly, lifts your hips and legs up to the surface. This helps streamline your body, maximizing hydrodynamics. If you don’t kick, your legs are likely to sink and drag. You also want to make sure you are kicking properly so that your kicking legs are hidden behind the bulk of your body. If you take long, flailing kicks, you are going to impede your hydrodynamics. So keep your kicks smaller, with you hips and legs up, so that you can cut through the smallest hole possible.
  3. You want to kick to facilitate your body rotation. Your body should not remain flat while swimming, but should rotate around the axis of your spine. A proper kick helps to rotate your hips during your stroke.
4

thanks so much.

i definitely have been swimming with my legs hanging low. never even thought about this.
i can imagine the kicking to streamline myself.
and then also get the propolsuion that i can. this all makes sense.

i am glad that i posted.

5

thanks so much.

i definitely have been swimming with my legs hanging low. never even thought about this.
i can imagine the kicking to streamline myself.
and then also get the propolsuion that i can. this all makes sense.

i am glad that i posted.
http://www.swimnetwork.com/blogs/blog/20080818/one_legged_swimmer_dives_into_open_water-1201.html

For those who think kicking is important, take a look at the above. They don’t use wetsuits in the Olympics. My IM swim time is 1:08, but then I am over 60, and I do have to save a bit for the rest of the day, so I don’t kick.

6

It never says anywhere in there that she doesn’t kick, just that she doesn’t have to kick as much as she would if she were a pool swimmer.
“The legs aren’t as important in open water as they are in pool races”
“Still, it’s quite unusual for someone with a major disability to compete in the Olympics, especially in a sport such as swimming where the legs provide much of the power.”

A good kick is still an essential part of swimming well.

7

Want to see the effect of legs on a long swim? Rubber band your ankles together and go for a swim without a pull buoy.

Very hard to maintain balance, rotation, streamline. The thing people don’t realize about the kick and I can’t do well in the pool is that a natural, good swimmer, gets a little muscle movement in the hips/thighs and that naturally propagates all the way through the leg and ankles to the pointy toes.

Think of your legs/kick as a rope or whip where you can only control the handle. “Kicking” from the middle of the rope(what most of us do) screws everything up and take WAY more energy.

8

When you quote, use the whole sentence…" The legs aren’t as important in open water as they are in pool races; she uses her thick, powerful arms to keep pace."…

She’s only got one leg, try kicking with one leg and making the Olympics.

It’s your arms, which by the way are a little closer, in terms of blood supply, to the heart, that are several times more effective in providing propulsion.

Your feet don’t hold up your hips. It’s your balance and position in the water that determines whether your legs are dragging or not. Most non competitive swimmers do not have the flexibility in their legs to provide a worthwhile kick of any kind. If you want to know if you should bother kicking, try doing 50m repeats in the pool. If you can’t break 55sec for a 50 (50sec if you’re doing yards) then you are wasting your energy kicking in open water. You are just splashing.

Not to mention most of the people on this forum are using wetsuits. Practically every race allows wetsuits. If you can’t keep your legs up in a wetsuit there is something seriously wrong with your stroke.

A good kick is an essential part of swimming well, in a pool.

9

**She’s only got one leg, try kicking with one leg and making the Olympics. **
Try kicking with no legs and making it to the Olympics.
Actually, she still has two legs (at least partially), one was cut off at the knee leaving half a leg. I’m willing to bet you all the money I’ve got that she used her one good leg and her half a leg to kick.
Watch an open water race (Olympics or otherwise) and find me someone who doesn’t kick. One person.

Your feet don’t hold up your hips. It’s your balance and position in the water that determines whether your legs are dragging or not.
No, your feet don’t hold up your hips. Proper body position holds your hips up. And proper body position is best achieved by proper kicking. It is possible to achieve good body position without kicking. But it’s not easy, and 99% of triathletes can’t do it.

Most non competitive swimmers do not have the flexibility in their legs to provide a worthwhile kick of any kind.
Really? I mean, really? What are you doing that requires flexibility? It’s not ballet.

**If you want to know if you should bother kicking, try doing 50m repeats in the pool. If you can’t break 55sec for a 50 (50sec if you’re doing yards) then you are wasting your energy kicking in open water. You are just splashing. **
I’ll fix this for you:
If you can’t break 55sec for a 50 (50sec if you’re doing yards) then you are wasting your energy. Work on better technique.

**Not to mention most of the people on this forum are using wetsuits. Practically every race allows wetsuits. If you can’t keep your legs up in a wetsuit there is something seriously wrong with your stroke. **
It goes beyond just keeping your legs up. Swimming is a full body sport. Your legs are connected to your hips, which are connected to your abdomen, which is connected to your shoulders, which are connected to your arms. All parts need to be working well together to maximize efficiency.

But by all means, don’t kick. The rest of us enjoy the head start you are giving us out of the water.

10

When you quote, use the whole sentence…" The legs aren’t as important in open water as they are in pool races; she uses her thick, powerful arms to keep pace."…

She’s only got one leg, try kicking with one leg and making the Olympics.

It’s your arms, which by the way are a little closer, in terms of blood supply, to the heart, that are several times more effective in providing propulsion.

Your feet don’t hold up your hips. It’s your balance and position in the water that determines whether your legs are dragging or not. Most non competitive swimmers do not have the flexibility in their legs to provide a worthwhile kick of any kind. If you want to know if you should bother kicking, try doing 50m repeats in the pool. If you can’t break 55sec for a 50 (50sec if you’re doing yards) then you are wasting your energy kicking in open water. You are just splashing.

Not to mention most of the people on this forum are using wetsuits. Practically every race allows wetsuits. If you can’t keep your legs up in a wetsuit there is something seriously wrong with your stroke.

A good kick is an essential part of swimming well, in a pool.
So close, yet so far.

No, your feet don’t hold up your hips, you are correct that it is balance and position. However, it takes very good arm form to swim any length without your legs and still maintain good position. Leg flexibility has nothing to do with not being able to produce a good kick, it’s ANKLE flexibility that is most often the limiter.

If you can’t break 55 seconds for a 50 in a pool then you have much bigger problems than a poor kick.

Yes, kicking is more important the shorter the distance. However, pool or open water, you still need the kick to provide a well balanced, even stroke.

John

11

Cycling logic applied to swimming. Beautiful, except it doesn’t work.

Not making fun of you - you seem to be new at swimming and merely trying to figure it out - it’s cute :slight_smile:

12

I hear these figures about 55sec/50m or your technique sucks all the time, and wonder how valid it is.

I’m a new swimmer, and have been working a lot on technique for the past year, and granted, am really slow, like 1:52/100m for intervals. However, I took 2 lessons with ex-champion swim coaches, who on hearing my times over the phone, expected to me to have glaring technique problems, but were both surprised (even shocked) to see me in the pool, as they said my form was essentially correct, and any corrections I’d be making would be small/minimal ones. These coaches were quite experienced as well, and not just ex-fast swimmers.

I think strong swimmers with good background underestimate the importance of physical endurance in the arms, which I think can take years to develop. I am a FOP cyclist and a FFOP runner (top 2%, if not 1%) so my cardio is ok, but it seems that my swim endurance is really poor. Of course, I can improve my technique, but it seems way off to think that I can lop off 40 seconds/100m off my time by pure technique when it’s “essentially correct” as per expert swim coaches (whose main suggestion was for me to do much more swim volume and intensity.)

13

I hear these figures about 55sec/50m or your technique sucks all the time, and wonder how valid it is.

It’s valid. As water is not a forgiving medium to inefficiency, we Fishes can look at times and estimate your technical ability from it.

I think strong swimmers with good background underestimate the importance of physical endurance in the arms, which I think can take years to develop.

It’s not the “endurance in our arm muscles” but the neuromuscular connects from our brains to those muscles. Sometimes that takes years to develop, others are gifted with a feel for the water from the beginning.

14

When you quote, use the whole sentence…" The legs aren’t as important in open water as they are in pool races; she uses her thick, powerful arms to keep pace."…

She’s only got one leg, try kicking with one leg and making the Olympics.

It’s your arms, which by the way are a little closer, in terms of blood supply, to the heart, that are several times more effective in providing propulsion.

Your feet don’t hold up your hips. It’s your balance and position in the water that determines whether your legs are dragging or not. Most non competitive swimmers do not have the flexibility in their legs to provide a worthwhile kick of any kind. If you want to know if you should bother kicking, try doing 50m repeats in the pool. If you can’t break 55sec for a 50 (50sec if you’re doing yards) then you are wasting your energy kicking in open water. You are just splashing.

Not to mention most of the people on this forum are using wetsuits. Practically every race allows wetsuits. If you can’t keep your legs up in a wetsuit there is something seriously wrong with your stroke.

A good kick is an essential part of swimming well, in a pool.
So close, yet so far.

No, your feet don’t hold up your hips, you are correct that it is balance and position. However, it takes very good arm form to swim any length without your legs and still maintain good position. Leg flexibility has nothing to do with not being able to produce a good kick, it’s ANKLE flexibility that is most often the limiter.

If you can’t break 55 seconds for a 50 in a pool then you have much bigger problems than a poor kick.

Yes, kicking is more important the shorter the distance. However, pool or open water, you still need the kick to provide a well balanced, even stroke.

John
My apologies, I thought it was clear, but in re reading my post i can see where you might misunderstand, that’s 55sec per 50m kick (yes you can have a board), only. If you don’t or can’t do that, you are basically just splashing, a lot. And, picky picky, yes it’s ankle and foot flexibility that determine speed. I was a breast stroker, no foot flexibility there, just legs. But believe you me, I can thrash and splash with the best of them, it’s a waste of time and energy. Use them round the buoys, a little splash there keeps the aggressive swimmers at bay, then save it for the bike!

15

The irony is that training to get an efficient kick is pretty much the only way that I know to later have the option to use it as little as possible.

In the context of distance swimming, efficient kick won’t make you any faster. However It will (hopefully) make you almost as fast as if you were swimming with a pull buoy or a wetsuit.

Using the stroke of a good swimmer (one that has such an efficient kick that he doesn’t need to use it very much) as an argument against the importance of building efficient kicking is fallacious (at best).

16

Try kicking with no legs and making it to the Olympics.
Actually, she still has two legs (at least partially), one was cut off at the knee leaving half a leg. I’m willing to bet you all the money I’ve got that she used her one good leg and her half a leg to kick.
Watch an open water race (Olympics or otherwise) and find me someone who doesn’t kick. One person.

We are talking Triathlon swimming here, right?. So apart from the pros (who ain’t in this forum), who’s your audience. AG Triathletes. Some, like me came from swimming backgrounds, and the rest, go figure. For the none swimmers, who will almost certainly never learn a good kick, a two beat kick, which gives no propulsion, is more than sufficient, if they are wearing a wetsuit. If they make it to Kona, they will have probably mastered a reasonable facsimile of a 2 beat kick. And that is all both pool and open water distance swimmers ever use these days. I gave her as an example that you don’t have to kick to swim well. You seem to have a vested interest in kicking, you got big feet or something?

**No, your feet don’t hold up your hips. Proper body position holds your hips up. And proper body position is best achieved by proper kicking. It is possible to achieve good body position without kicking. But it’s not easy, and 99% of triathletes can’t do it. **

So instead of learning to relax and swim in a better position, you suggest they splash and thrash about wasting energy on a bad kick, cos that’ll save em!

**Really? I mean, really? What are you doing that requires flexibility? It’s not ballet. **

Your are so right, ballet dancers have way stronger legs, probably have an amazing kick. But an awfull lot of the rest have a block of wood on the end of their legs that just makes a splash. And I have passed so many who have their feet firmly set like they are toe punting the water, splashing along, they may as well be wearing a parachute. If they merely pointed their toes they would be faster.

I’ll fix this for you:
If you can’t break 55sec for a 50 (50sec if you’re doing yards) then you are wasting your energy. Work on better technique.

As pointed out in a previous post, this is a time for kicking (not swimming full stroke). And by the way, check the times on the majority of AG swimmers. 1:40 is fast, 2:00 is normal MOP. You want to check, go to Sportstats.ca and pick an event.

**It goes beyond just keeping your legs up. Swimming is a full body sport. Your legs are connected to your hips, which are connected to your abdomen, which is connected to your shoulders, which are connected to your arms. **All parts need to be working well together to maximize efficiency.

I love that song (you missed a few bits along the way). But I think the last bit spoils the rythym, kinda “workers unite” sort of sentiment.

But by all means, don’t kick. The rest of us enjoy the head start you are giving us out of the water.

Ok I wasn’t going to argue ad hominem, but you started it. I checked my last 12 races, going back to spring 2008 (you probably don’t have Sportstats.ca down there). That included 4 HIM, 1 IM distance, and a bunch of Oly’s including the Worlds in Vancouver. I didn’t win the swim in Vancouver (they cancelled it). In the rest, 1 -3rd place (pinched nerve so I loafed that one) the rest I won (ok I’m not counting the one where I swam of the course, but thats another topic altogether) and the fastest average was the IM. So obviously, you ain’t in my AG.

“You can’t have a good argument with someone who agrees with you!”

      ** **
17

The irony is that training to get an efficient kick is pretty much the only way that I know to later have the option to use it as little as possible.

So let me get this straight, you’ve got X hours a week to train in. A good swim is worth a few minutes in the Oly, maybe 6 in a HIM and 12-15 in an IM. So how much time are you going to devote to training for something you will use “as little as possible”. I’ve kicked in the pool for 50 years, it’s never going to get any better. The swim represents only about 16% of the total time in an Oly and maybe 11% in an IM. It’s only in the Sprints that it makes a difference.

In the context of distance swimming, efficient kick won’t make you any faster. However It will (hopefully) make you almost as fast as if you were swimming with a pull buoy or a wetsuit.

Uh…might I draw your attention to the wetsuit part of your sentence (and ok I agree we shouldn’t allow pull buoys in the race). Except for Kona, where I race they have never, ever, anytime, anywhere said no wetsuits. Basically unless it’s bathwater temp (above 74f, come on) everone is wearing a wetsuit. I have done an Oly at 64f without a wetsuit (in the early days), the wetsuit changed all that. Of course if you are really good you don’t have to wear one, but then you would miss all the fun of getting the dam thing off!

Using the stroke of a good swimmer (one that has such an efficient kick that he doesn’t need to use it very much) as an argument against the importance of building efficient kicking is fallacious (at best).

I love it when people talk dirty…oh sorry you mean it’s a silly argument to not waste your time trying to do something you probably can never do, unless you were born with naturally flexible feet or size 17’s like Ian Thorpe and instead take a few minutes off your ride/run time by better directed training, without trashing your legs before you have started.

But, what the hey, if it works for you…go for it.

18

But, what the hey, if it works for you…go for it.

Phog, my comment wasn’t addressed to you. In fact, in my humble opinion, you should avoid kick sets. I agree that they don’t seem to be for you. Not at all in fact. Do not kick, you don’t need it. But what’s bad for you, isn’t necessarily bad for all AG.

Some might be interested in lowering the overall energy costs spent on the swim leg, in order to better perform the remaining of the event. And a good way to achieve this, is to bring the energy expenditure of one’s Full Stroke Crawl as close as possible to that of performing with a Pull (or a wet, whatever). But again, given that you did 50years of kicking, you no longer have to commit to this.

Cheers
Charles

PS - A fallacy is (to the best of my Frenchy knowledge) not a dirty word. Great swimmers are capable of performing with minimal use of their kick, therefore it is useless to work on our kick. This is a fallacy. Sorry for having sounded cryptic. Wasn’t done on purpose.

19

That’s ok, was just pulling your leg. For that to be a dirty word you would have to spell it differently. Everyone is way too serious in these forums.

The reason I don’t kick is I take 2 mins to kick a fifty, in my lane I have to breastroke kick to keep up with the good flutter kickers (sub 60 sec 50’s). But give me a pull buoy and I’m gone. I swim with a bunch of really good swimmers (more than a few in way faster lanes) and an amazing number of good freestylers can’t kick worth a dam. For some reason, woman are great kickers, maybe it’s the hip position, body mass, but I could get shot down in flames over that remark.

20

I was raised in Florida. I swam in lakes, rivers, and the ocean. The reason I never learned kicking was… alligators.
In my opinion, slapping/turbulance near the water surface could attract gators. Maybe its just my unfounded phobia? I don’t know.
As a child I subconsiously worked on having a lean/clean profile in the water. More than fast, I wanted to be “quiet”.

My humble opinion is that if you swim in a Florida lake, and are alone or with just a buddy or 2, don’t kick. If the acoustics of your freestyle sounds like a swimming/struggling deer, do the breaststroke.

Welll, now that I am a triathete pretender, have some good kicking advice, and don’t live in gator country, I am ready to burn-rubber. Thanks everyone for all the support.