If you read the book then you’ll remember how FTP, TSS, VI relate to each other and how it can help you with pacing. Add to that the distance of the race, terrain, your fitness level and your running skills and you should be able to have a solid idea of what you can or can’t do. But just to be safe, you could do at least a couple of race rehearsals at “x” watts follow by a transition goal pace run and see how your legs feel.
With all due respect, that isn’t how it works…esp with a SRM.
TSS and VI are a nifty lil tool to analyze your workout. Unless you’re a math prodigy, the cals can’t occur on the fly.
Here’s the data. I wasn’t close to my FTP, but it IS somewhat possible that I wasn’t properly fueled due to the race delay of an hour (coupled with the extra heat). My run fitness is fine, but I’m working through some run injuries. The goal was to conservatively run a 7:30 pace as I has a 1/2 Ironman the following day and wanted to be somewhat fresh.
Take into consideration that I basically stopped racing at mile 15-18ish. I forget. As you can see from the 5/10/20/60 reading, I was “trying” to be consistent. But, I gotta tell you folks…starring at the power reading and staying “in the zone” doesn’t work over time. The turns/race traffic/etc will ultimately make your readings lower in the long run.
It does suprise me that the Npower is that high considering I actually sandbagged the hills. Scary to think how high the number WOULD have been if I wasn’t being a dork and pacing with my SRM.
Didn’t wear my HRM (those readings must have been from a ghost)
SRM #1:
Duration: 1:19:36
Work: 1120 kJ
TSS: 90.4 (intensity factor 0.826)
Norm Power: 256
VI: 1.09
Distance: 28.174 mi
Min Max Avg
Power: 0 615 235 watts
Heart rate: 0 251 7 bpm
Cadence: 29 179 86 rpm
Speed: 0 37.2 21.2 mph
Pace 1:37 0:00 2:50 min/mi
Crank Torque: 0 787 237 lb-in
Entire workout (220 watts):
Duration: 1:28:40 (4:00:14)
Work: 1170 kJ
TSS: 97.2 (intensity factor 0.811)
Norm Power: 251
VI: 1.14
Distance: 29.628 mi
Min Max Avg
Power: 0 615 220 watts
Heart rate: 0 251 7 bpm
Cadence: 29 179 85 rpm
Speed: 0 37.2 20.0 mph
Pace 1:37 0:00 2:60 min/mi
Crank Torque: 0 938 226 lb-in
Peak 5s (568 watts):
Duration: 0:05
Work: 3 kJ
TSS: n/a
Norm Power: n/a
VI: n/a
Distance: 97 ft
Min Max Avg
Power: 534 615 568 watts
Heart rate: 0 0 0 bpm
Cadence: 66 77 72 rpm
Speed: 12.2 14.2 13.2 mph
Pace 4:13 4:54 4:32 min/mi
Crank Torque: 599 787 674 lb-in
Peak 10s (530 watts):
Duration: 0:10
Work: 5 kJ
TSS: n/a
Norm Power: n/a
VI: n/a
Distance: 206 ft
Min Max Avg
Power: 402 615 530 watts
Heart rate: 0 0 0 bpm
Cadence: 58 89 76 rpm
Speed: 11 16.6 14.0 mph
Pace 3:37 5:27 4:17 min/mi
Crank Torque: 381 787 605 lb-in
Peak 20s (481 watts):
Duration: 0:20
Work: 10 kJ
TSS: n/a
Norm Power: n/a
VI: n/a
Distance: 378 ft
Min Max Avg
Power: 422 550 481 watts
Heart rate: 0 95 14 bpm
Cadence: 71 108 80 rpm
Speed: 11.5 17 12.9 mph
Pace 3:32 5:13 4:40 min/mi
Crank Torque: 410 554 510 lb-in
Peak 30s (441 watts):
Duration: 0:30
Work: 13 kJ
TSS: 1.7 (intensity factor 1.423)
Norm Power: n/a
VI: n/a
Distance: 581 ft
Min Max Avg
Power: 275 550 441 watts
Heart rate: 0 113 16 bpm
Cadence: 71 108 81 rpm
Speed: 11.5 19.8 13.2 mph
Pace 3:02 5:13 4:32 min/mi
Crank Torque: 274 554 467 lb-in
Peak 1min (388 watts):
Duration: 1:00
Work: 23 kJ
TSS: 2.9 (intensity factor 1.312)
Norm Power: n/a
VI: n/a
Distance: 0.25 mi
Min Max Avg
Power: 118 536 388 watts
Heart rate: 0 88 6 bpm
Cadence: 72 111 88 rpm
Speed: 9.9 32.1 15.0 mph
Pace 1:52 6:04 3:60 min/mi
Crank Torque: 116 528 380 lb-in
Peak 2min (335 watts):
Duration: 2:00
Work: 40 kJ
TSS: 4.1 (intensity factor 1.115)
Norm Power: n/a
VI: n/a
Distance: 0.531 mi
Min Max Avg
Power: 39 536 335 watts
Heart rate: 0 88 3 bpm
Cadence: 36 111 84 rpm
Speed: 9.9 32.1 15.9 mph
Pace 1:52 6:04 3:46 min/mi
Crank Torque: 44 528 338 lb-in
Peak 5min (286 watts):
Duration: 5:00
Work: 86 kJ
TSS: 8.7 (intensity factor 1.021)
Norm Power: 317
VI: 1.11
Distance: 1.489 mi
Min Max Avg
Power: 0 550 286 watts
Heart rate: 0 113 4 bpm
Cadence: 36 111 86 rpm
Speed: 9.9 33.8 17.9 mph
Pace 1:47 6:04 3:22 min/mi
Crank Torque: 0 554 286 lb-in
Peak 10min (278 watts):
Duration: 10:00
Work: 167 kJ
TSS: 15 (intensity factor 0.949)
Norm Power: 294
VI: 1.06
Distance: 3.289 mi
Min Max Avg
Power: 0 536 278 watts
Heart rate: 0 210 6 bpm
Cadence: 34 179 86 rpm
Speed: 6.5 37.2 19.7 mph
Pace 1:37 9:17 3:02 min/mi
Crank Torque: 0 714 284 lb-in
Peak 20min (269 watts):
Duration: 20:00
Work: 323 kJ
TSS: 28.2 (intensity factor 0.919)
Norm Power: 285
VI: 1.06
Distance: 6.789 mi
Min Max Avg
Power: 0 615 269 watts
Heart rate: 0 210 6 bpm
Cadence: 34 179 88 rpm
Speed: 6.5 37.2 20.4 mph
Pace 1:37 9:17 2:57 min/mi
Crank Torque: 0 787 268 lb-in
Peak 30min (264 watts):
Duration: 30:00
Work: 476 kJ
TSS: 41.5 (intensity factor 0.911)
Norm Power: 282
VI: 1.07
Distance: 10.631 mi
Min Max Avg
Power: 0 615 264 watts
Heart rate: 0 210 7 bpm
Cadence: 30 179 88 rpm
Speed: 6.1 37.2 21.3 mph
Pace 1:37 9:51 2:49 min/mi
Crank Torque: 0 787 262 lb-in
Peak 60min (252 watts):
Duration: 1:00:00
Work: 906 kJ
TSS: 73.3 (intensity factor 0.856)
Norm Power: 265
VI: 1.05
Distance: 21.9 mi
Min Max Avg
Power: 0 615 252 watts
Heart rate: 0 210 4 bpm
Cadence: 29 179 88 rpm
Speed: 6.1 37.2 21.9 mph
Pace 1:37 9:51 2:44 min/mi
Crank Torque: 0 787 247 lb-in
Bump if you want to look at the data…
I just got my Power tap 2 weeks ago and I’m still trying to figure out what all the colorful pictures on the computer screen mean when I download the data. I had a rolling/hilly race Saturday and my numbers are pretty much in line with yours if you dropped that line way down. Yeah, it was nice to have all that data to analyze after the race and maybe I just don’t know exactly what I’m looking at or how to interpret it, but I’m still trying to figure out how this is going to help me race a hilly/rolling course where my power is all over the place.
If I would have gone by RPE, I would have been blown after 15 minutes and this is one area I do understand how power can be useful. But after that, once you start feeling your legs is there any way to use power to pace and not leave something on the course.
Diesel, re-read your post here…I am seeing lots of things (outside of FTP and pace goals) that might effect this race…you list them:-)
heat, delayed race start, run injuries, holding back for a race the next day (what’s up with that?), so I am not sure this event, and these numbers from said event are the best for “race analysis”
Kurt
.
Thanks for the reponse.
I think we got a lil off topic as I was mostly interested in general theories on hilly power pacing, not necessarily my performance (on Sat). IMO, preparation (potential) and performance are completely separate discussions.
Sounds to me this is where science might be lacking. AC has defined FTP and I can understand that…albiet may effected from race to race for any number of reasons. NP is a nifty lil calculation that I can look at real time with an Ergomo, but not on my SRM. But, there really isn’t a true definition regarding NP’s relationship to FTP which can be used as a pacing tool (I’m sure folks would disagree).
From what I’m hearing, it’s more of a trial and error process. So, I’m just going to shut up and race next time! ;o)
yea, I still think sticking close to target watts is ALMOST always gonna yeild a fast(est) bike/run split (so you gotta raise that FTP)
n=1 : I raced a sprint here this weekend…BIG climb, like 4-5min, in the 39x25 at 6-7mph, and only 330-340w (my FTP is 290w)cadence in the 60s to keep the watts down, took a lot of patience, knowing that I could acclerate over the top and go 35+mph on the flats/downs.
BTW…I won the race and had the fastest bike split (no lie :-)) and my VI was 1.03
Kurt
Sounds to me this is where science might be lacking. AC has defined FTP and I can understand that…albiet may effected from race to race for any number of reasons. NP is a nifty lil calculation that I can look at real time with an Ergomo, but not on my SRM. But, there really isn’t a true definition regarding NP’s relationship to FTP which can be used as a pacing tool (I’m sure folks would disagree).
If you’re going to use a power meter for pacing. I still think you need to be developing your pacing based on IF. In my n=1 experience for an Olympic distance event a IF of around .93 to .95 will generally yield good run results.
For a flat course were you are constantly pedaling your average power and normalized power will be close.
If the course involves lots of non-pedaling (i.e. coasting down steep hills, corners…etc) you might want to use the non-zero average power (don’t know if SRM has this ability). AC might no agree with this.
However this method still requires you to know how much to put into hills and such. Since what you really want to be doing is racing not chasing a number on a screen. 
I really don’t know that there’s much use in worrying about your IF for a sprint or oly tri. It’s pretty much balls on the wall. If you’re in top running form you can run a 10k even on bike-trashed legs. Where the IF becomes important is in 1/2 Im’s and most importantly IM’s. In a hilly-hilly oly I’d keep my climbs in check but not worry too much on the IF. Peg it.
I agree. You shouldn’t be trying to chase a number on the screen. There’s a lot of strategy on the bike at the shorter distances to just rely on power meter pacing. However, in my experience I have never and will never make up more time on the bike by overextending myself than by having a good run.
The OP wanted pacing guidelines (I was assuming for an Olympic Distance) so based on race paced training, club RBR’s and some C races I’m saying an IF of .93 to .95 is a good starting point for setting up a good run.
I agree on shorter distance races. I’d only look at the current watts to make sure you are not substantially exceeding your FTP on the flats. The key to hillclimbing in short races with the PM is to figure out how long it will take to climb the hill…and pick a power level that is about 85-90% of your capacity for an effort of that distance. I.e. for me (~265-270W FTP) a 4 minute effort is maxed out around 325-335W but I could climb at 280-300W (~90%) for that 4 minutes and not be toast at the top. This is really only valid for shorter distances though, if you try to do that repeatedly in an IM you’ll be dead meat by the time you hit T2. The best way of course is to go ride the hills in that racecourse and pick a couple of them. Ride up them at what you think is a sustainable effort, then ride back down and do it 5 more times. If you are dying by the 3rd or 4th time then yer probably going up them too hard and it’ll hurt you in the race.
For 1/2 and IM distance flat races I found similar problems with pacing via PE or the PM. I rarely look at the average power when racing, just instantaneous power to make sure my typical riding is within the ~75-80% of FTP range…on the high end for 1/2 and the lower end for IM. Short, extremely steep hills like at the GFT can seriously bump up the NP, my first race with the PM was 189W with an NP of 235ish due to the steep hills.
Scary to think how high the number WOULD have been if I wasn’t being a dork and pacing with my SRM.
**Recall that the NP alogorithm tends to overvalue short hard efforts thereby giving you an NP number that may be higher than the true physiological cost that took place during the race. Also if you have good 1-5min power you will be better able to recover from these small surge efforts over the course of the sprint. **
I was just posting in general to the thread. I wasn’t necessarily disagreeing with your post. You just happened to be the one I replied to.
Nice job!
What I have found in racing 1/2’s and down is that the PM is there for long sustained climbs where caping it is required as well as going steady in the flats where going too easy can happen. Once you find yourself in the rollers and short hills. JFR baby… JUST F&%KING RIDE
You gonna ever get your butt back here? I wanna to dog sit Amos if you go out to dinner or something.
not sure when I will be back in Boulder…pushing the wife to look for jobs there, but I am sure you know that is tough, and you have to make 200K+ to break even there:-)
I am doing some stuff with Brandon at Boulder Cycle Sport, but no concrete plans yet.
you do NOT want to dog sit Amos yet, he is a bit of a terror when the mood strikes. He decided to try to do a muscle biopsy on my calf this AM…I wanted to ring his neck. I thought a 2 year old son was tough…
KP
not sure when I will be back in Boulder…pushing the wife to look for jobs there, but I am sure you know that is tough, and you have to make 200K+ to break even there:-)
Gunbarrel… Louisville… Lyons… Niwot. Oh yeah… ran switzerland trail with Mike R and Barry S on Sunday… beautiful!!! And the housing prices were o_kay. Views would be worth it. Quiet too. Um… but then there’s that winter thing.
I am doing some stuff with Brandon at Boulder Cycle Sport, but no concrete plans yet.
Cool!
you do NOT want to dog sit Amos yet, he is a bit of a terror when the mood strikes. He decided to try to do a muscle biopsy on my calf this AM…I wanted to ring his neck. I thought a 2 year old son was tough…
**Remember… there’s that small vein of naughtyness/craziness in the Viszlas… you know… they’re just like triathletes… they go nutz when they dont get their excersize in. **
Kids or dogs??? Hmmmm I’ll take a dog… course I also dont have any womens right now either. 
First and foremost, how you race using a PM is entirely dependent on the distance. For an Oly, I would say that using a PM for pacing is not very useful at all. It could be helpful in the first couple of miles to make sure you’re not hammering well above FTP but it’s largely very close to an all-out effort. Ideally, a well-balanced all-out effort. What I find most useful from an Oly is to use the data as a confirmation of, or to fine tune, your FTP. An example would be to take the Peak 60min (NP). Although your AP and NP should be quite close together (unless it’s just a really really hilly Oly course), I prefer Peak 60min NP because an Oly should be performed just slightly under FTP. Like someone else said, around 95% of FTP. So, Peak 60min AP might be a tad low for an estimate.
If you were 60 watts below FTP then one or all of the following might apply:
- Your sciatic issue is a pretty big problem and probably nullifies your data
- You mentally were just not prepared to race on that day
- Your FTP is much lower than you think it is
So, if you’re looking for pacing guidelines on hilly courses for HIMs or IMs then you need to be more specific. I follow and preach these general guidelines specifically for IM:
- Short climbs – real-time power is 85 - 95% of FTP (goal is to NOT exceed FTP)
- Long climbs – real-time power is 80 - 90% of FTP
Example of short climbs would be steep rollers and the old climbs at IMCDA (I don’t know the new course). Examples of long climbs would be Richter and Yellow Lake climbs at IMC. You should NOT have your PM set for ave power. You want to monitor real-time power. There’s also the issue of how you handle descents. I believe Kurt addressed that issue quite well. I ALWAYS use RPE and HR in conjunction with power when using these guidelines.
Flats should be done around your goal IF for the race. Your goal IF will be dependent on the amount of time you’re on the bike (among some other variables).
I hope this is helpful…
Thanks, Chris
The new IMCDA course is rollers/rollers for about a 20 mile section up in Hayden - no climb is over 0.5 mile (or close) - nothing super steep but 200-220 (150 pound rider) watts gets you about 6-8 mph up a couple of the steeper ones. I used my 39-27 on a lot trying to keep my watts <FTP. Once I download my Ergomo I can give people more data re: length of hills/speed/watts…need to be home for that.
Re: Pacing: I like your IM numbers a lot. I’ve heard keep watts < half IM watts for long climbs and <oly watts for short climbs (several minutes) which is essentially the same as your posted.
Always like your posts - thanks,
Dave
Dave,
I greatly appreciate the kind words. I’d also be very interested to hear people’s (detailed) impressions of the new IMCDA bike course. I’ve received somewhat mixed reviews on how much the wind impacted bike times this past weekend but the Pros, as they usually do, rode roughly the same. However, I noticed slower times in general. The swim could have mentally messed with a lot of people but my suspicion is that the course is just more difficult than most us expected.
I’d be very interested to see some power files from this course. You can always send them to chris at chriswhyte dot net. I always have lots of questions and feedback.
Sorry if this is a bit OT…
Thanks!!
Chris
Well i like you always used to climb the hills too hard. that was until i got a PM. now i try to back down the watts on hill climbs. but as i summit hte hill or the hill levels off i try to hold consistent watts. i try to always average the target watts. So when you crest the hill and it flattens or goes down hill i have to increase the watts as they drop off. i find this to be a great way of dropping people. as most people go up the hill way too fast and then rest on the summit, as the hill flattens out or on the down hill. I was also told to take it easy on most of the hill and then pick up the pace near the top. that is what i try to do. but like i said i try to hold the watts on the summit, the flat or the downhill. this will keep your watt average more or less where you want it. yea, guys may be flying by you going up hill but unless they can really bring it. you will reel them back in at the top of the hill on the down hill or when you are back on the flats and if not then you will have fresher legs on the run!!!