How to circumvent the Constitution

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/02/11/AR2009021101486.html

It’s easy to avoid the pesky problem of having to go through the ammendment process when you have a majority in the Senate, the House and you own the White House.

This, along with the Census debacle is so blatantly partisan…it truly makes my stomach get in knots.

I didn’t vote Dem or Rep in the election (although I did vote) but Obama wasn’t my guy. I didn’t believe in the whole “Hope, Change, Belief” thing, although I had a small glimmer of hope that there actually might be some measure of honesty and truth behind the man. Sadly, it should be completely transparent at this point, even though he’s been in office only a few weeks, that the intent is to completely remake this country in a hard left image…and to hell with the 50% of the country that doesn’t want things that way.

My main emotion is not anger but true sadness. Our country is so divided and neither political party is really willing to do what is best for the COUNTRY, rather, they will do whatever they feel is best for THEM and their self interests.

Sad. Very very very sad.

Wow, can’t believe you are really so worked up about this. I live in DC, what is your problem with the District having congressional representation? I understand that the strict wording of the Constitution refers to “the states” or “the several states” or “the many states” and that the District is not a state. However things have changed from when the Constitution was written, DC is a city with a substantial population, why in your opinion should this population not have (voting) Congressional representation?

Furthermore, what will certainly be a democratic seat for the District will be offset by a republican seat (most likely in Utah). How is that so partisan? It seems pretty fair to me. Honestly, what has been partisan has been refusing representation to the District by the republicans because they knew it would be a democratic seat. Refusing to give people representation because you know the representative won’t be of your party is what is purely partisan.

Additionally, how is passing a bill “circumventing the constitution” as you put it? And if it makes you feel any better, if and when this gets passed, most seem to think it will go to the Supreme Court for a ruling…seems like things are playing out as the process dictates they should.

I just don’t understand the outrage over this, of all, issues.

It seems to me that the residents of DC really should have representation in the federal government. It also seems to me that this is not the way to do it.

I would suggest that we either return DC to Maryland or if it remains necessary to have a federal enclave that we permit DC residents to vote in Maryland’s house and senate elections.

If the bill does violate the constitution it should be overturned by the courts. We have bigger fish to fry right now.

For me, the concern is not representation or the presumed political impact of that representation but rather the willingness to suspend the dictates of the Constitution. I understand that so-called scholars can interpret the Constitution in many tortured ways. I think they are wrong to do so. DC is not a state and under what I consider to be a rather straight forward and plain language interpretation is not entitled to either house or senate representation. Passing legislation that to me is so clearly unconstitutional is wrong and violates the oaths that they all took to support and defend the constitution.

That’s fair, and if so, the Supreme Court will decide on the issue. And then possibly it could lead to an amendment. As I said in my first post, this is why we have clearly defined processes, let them work out in the manner in which they were designed to.

And in my opinion it doesn’t take a “tortured interpretation” of the constitution to understand that the residents of DC deserve Congressional representation. It’s a bit ironic don’t you think, the center of power of our representative democracy doesn’t have representation? I pay federal taxes and have no federal (voting) representation, if a “non-traditional” reading of the constitution is what it takes to change that, then I am ok with it. I don’t think you need to worry about the “slippery slope” of this setting precedent for other tortured interpretations of the constitution, again, the Supreme Court acts as a backstop for that.

Although we do get fun license plates that say “Taxation Without Representation” on them as our token protest :slight_smile:

We have bigger fish to fry right now.

Yeah, exactly. When I clicked on the link that was certainly not the topic I expected given the level of outrage in the original post.

But how is it the right thing to do for the legislature to pass what seems to be a plainly unconstitutional law? How does that not violate their oaths? Out system of checks and balances is not designed for one branch to abdicate its role in favor of the other stepping in. Our legislators have an obligation to pass constitutional laws, not to pass unconstitutional ones in the hope that the Supremes will keep them honest.

Your second point is precisely why the Constitution should be amended … not ignored or abrogated. And it needs to be changed not by a decision by the Supreme Court but by the proper amendment process. You can’t simply say that it should not be that way and then interpret the problem away.

But how is it the right thing to do for the legislature to pass what seems to be a plainly unconstitutional law? How does that not violate their oaths? Out system of checks and balances is not designed for one branch to abdicate its role in favor of the other stepping in. Our legislators have an obligation to pass constitutional laws, not to pass unconstitutional ones in the hope that the Supremes will keep them honest.

Your second point is precisely why the Constitution should be amended … not ignored or abrogated. And it needs to be changed not by a decision by the Supreme Court but by the proper amendment process. You can’t simply say that it should not be that way and then interpret the problem away.
How many things did GW sign that were later deemed unconstitutional? Stuff happens, no big deal. That’s why we have a balance of power.

How many things did GW sign that were later deemed unconstitutional? Stuff happens, no big deal. That’s why we have a balance of power.

Sigh.

How about all of the laws that have been passed banning abortion and subsequently shot down? It is clearly going against current law yet they still get passed and struck down. Should the legislatures passing them stop or be prosectuted/sanctioned for passing laws that are obviously contrary to current rulings? I am pro-choice, but I’m not going to stand here and tell people to stop pushing for what they believe in.
I am not familar with their oaths, but if all they have to say is that they will up hold the laws of the US" then it can be open to a wide, even tourtered, interpretation. They are not saying they will up hold the laws according to Brick’s interpretation, even if you feel they should.

I heard a proposal (not sure if they were serious) that DC’ers be exempt from paying federal income tax…the no taxation w/out representation thing. Your idea sounds good.

How about all of the laws that have been passed banning abortion and subsequently shot down?


I don’t know. I have not read all them. If you are referring to state legislators attempting to limit abortions, those legislators may or may not have taken an oath to support and defend the US Constitution. If they did, then they would need to determine for themselves whether the US Constitution contains a right to privacy such that Roe v. Wade was a proper interpretation or not. The Constitution itself is, of course, silent on the issue of abortion, as I am sure you know. And, it is precisely because Congress has abrogated its leglislative authority on this point that access to abortion lies upon the whims (and I use the word intentionally) of nine people wearing black robes.

The point on the representation of DC in the House is one that is addressed rather specifically and really quite clearly in the Constitution. I think it is disingenuous at best to contend that I am somehow asking our federal legislators to abide by my singular and personal interpretation.

Because interpretations can change based upon the political and social persuasions of the nine who wear the black robes, it is my position that the Constitution should be read narrowly. Its intepretation should not be used to engineer social change. Such change should come from the legislature.

It seems to me that the residents of DC really should have representation in the federal government. It also seems to me that this is not the way to do it.

George Will wrote an excellent piece on this issue last week, which was countered, I think, effectively by Robert Schlessinger shortly after:

Washington, D.C. Voting Rights: George Will is Half-Right But Misses the Point
February 05, 2009 04:51 PM ET

George Will writes lays out a (mostly) cogent case in today’s* Washington Post* against the bill, likely to become law, which would give the District of Columbia a voting member in the House of Representatives. But it fails to address a critical question: How would he apply fundamental principles of representative government to D.C. citizens?
Will makes the strict constructionist argument against a voting member for D.C. States, he notes, get members in the House:
But the District is not a state. It is (as the Constitution says in Article I, Section 8) “the seat of the government of the United States.” That is why, in 1978, the District’s advocates sent to the states a constitutional amendment requiring that “for purposes of representation” the district would be “treated as though it were a state.” Only 16 states ratified it, 22 short of the required number. So the District’s advocates decided that an amendment is unnecessary—a statute will suffice because the Constitution empowers Congress “to exercise exclusive legislation” over the District. They argue that this power can be used to, in effect, amend the Constitution by nullifying Article I, Section 2’s requirement that House members come from “the several states.” This argument, that Congress’s legislative power trumps the Constitution, means that Congress could establish religion, abridge freedom of speech and of the press, and abolish the right of peaceful assembly in the District.
That’s persuasive reasoning. Less persuasive and more hysterical is this notion:
And, of course, Congress next could give the District two senators. Which probably is the main objective of the Democrats who are most of the supporters of this end run around the Constitution. In the 12 elections since the District acquired, by constitutional amendment, the right to allocate presidential electoral votes, it has never cast less than 74.8 percent of its popular vote for the Democratic presidential candidate.
D.C. is on the verge of getting a voting member because a new House seat for Utah could be paired with it, meaning that each party would get a new safe seat. No such pairing is possible in the Senate. Congress giving D.C. Senate representation would require such overwhelming Democratic majorities that it would as a practical political matter mean that the Republican Party had ceased to exist as a viable political entity. In that case, Will and his ideological brethren would have larger issues.

But back to the main thrust of his column. Maybe he ran out of space on the page, but he somehow failed to address the fundamental issue underlying the push to grant D.C. a voting House member: What alternative does he suggest for getting congressional representation for the 500,000+ U.S. citizens who reside in D.C.? It’s a fundamental principle of this country that its citizens should be represented in the federal government, specifically in the federal legislature. Half a million of them are not. (By comparison: D.C.'s population is larger than Wyoming’s.)

This is laughably un-American, regardless of whether 74.8 percent of that half-million are Democrats.

Does George Will’s outrage over the imminent breach of the Constitution extend to the ongoing breach of the country’s founding principles? What do he and other conservatives propose to fix the problem?

And please spare me the hoary argument that if the Founders had intended for D.C. to have voting rights they’d have taken care of it themselves. The city has changed in a way that the Founders didn’t anticipate, and now the Constitution should as well.

Anything else is un-American.

http://www.usnews.com/blogs/robert-schlesinger/2009/2/5/washington-dc-voting-rights-george-will-is-half-right-but-misses-the-point.html

Forgot to add: In his summary, Schlessinger points to the need for Constitutional change. The current offering is a circumvention, not an amendment. Ultimately, I have to side with Will’s position. It’s unfair, but there are constitutional ways to resolve the issue.

Although we do get fun license plates that say “Taxation Without Representation” on them as our token protest :slight_smile:
Did you hear that Bush’s motorcade vehicles had DC plates that did not say “Taxation Without Representation”?

Is that true or a joke I am not getting?

I guess I never really thought about, just figured motorcade vehicles had some sort of federal plates on them or something.

Anyone can get DC plates without the slogan if they ask. The slogan was approved in late 2000 and I think Clinton put them on his limo to tweak W before the inauguration.

Those are interesting points. I am not opposed to representation but it needs to be done within the confines of the Constitution and I don’t think this legislation is the right way.

Is that true or a joke I am not getting?

I guess I never really thought about, just figured motorcade vehicles had some sort of federal plates on them or something.

Clinton had the DC plates on his limo and the motorcade. Bush had them removed and replaced with standard gub’mint plates.