So I’m not whining about being a slow swimmer but curious how much of a difference having a “swimmers build” makes vs my more modest cyclist build. I have a few buddies who started swimming about the same time as me, put in very similar swimming hours but consistently out swim me by minutes, even in a sprint. I understand form plays a huge part but all things being equal how much faster does a 6 footer with long arms, short legs big hands and feet go than my 5’6 skinny arms, long muscular legs with small feet and small hands for the same effort?
FWIW, I bet you can swim faster than LeBron James
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Unless you’re swimming at the very, very highest level, anatomy doesn’t matter. To prove that point: I had two teammates who had been All Americans during their undergrad. One was a 5’7", 120 lb male who rocked the mile. The other was a 5’0.5", 105 lb female whose specialty was the 200 fly but also demolished the 400 IM. They worked very hard and were passionate.
This is the same thing with running - until you get to the highest level, you’ll find people who excel at any body type.
Unless you’re swimming at the very, very highest level, anatomy doesn’t matter. To prove that point: I had two teammates who had been All Americans during their undergrad. One was a 5’7", 120 lb male who rocked the mile. The other was a 5’0.5", 105 lb female whose specialty was the 200 fly but also demolished the 400 IM. They worked very hard and were passionate.
This is the same thing with running - until you get to the highest level, you’ll find people who excel at any body type.
Anatomy or whatever you want to call it still matters plenty. But its only one of many factors, which is why people with a sub-optimal factor or two can overcome them to be better than most. You can only be at the highest of levels if everything is perfect.
But yeah, some stroke refinement and time in the pool and you can be a solid swimmer regardless
So I’m not whining about being a slow swimmer but curious how much of a difference having a “swimmers build” makes vs my more modest cyclist build. I have a few buddies who started swimming about the same time as me, put in very similar swimming hours but consistently out swim me by minutes, even in a sprint. I understand form plays a huge part but all things being equal how much faster does a 6 footer with long arms, short legs big hands and feet go than my 5’6 skinny arms, long muscular legs with small feet and small hands for the same effort?
You can easily find yourself misjudging “similar hours” perception and find that they likely put more hours than you. Also, what you do with that time in the water makes the world of difference. Not the body type.
Do 4’6" 8yr olds outswim you? There’s your answer.
Get back in the pool, put in more work, catch up to your buddies.
Do 4’6" 8yr olds outswim you? There’s your answer.
Get back in the pool, put in more work, catch up to your buddies.
This
So I’m not whining about being a slow swimmer but curious how much of a difference having a “swimmers build” makes vs my more modest cyclist build. I have a few buddies who started swimming about the same time as me, put in very similar swimming hours but consistently out swim me by minutes, even in a sprint. I understand form plays a huge part but all things being equal how much faster does a 6 footer with long arms, short legs big hands and feet go than my 5’6 skinny arms, long muscular legs with small feet and small hands for the same effort?
As others have pointed out, anatomy is only crucial at the very, very highest levels, and even there it does not rule: look at the video of Janet Evans swimming at the ‘88 Oly against the East Germans. On the starting blocks, she was literally 5’5" and around 100 lbs vs the German girls who were all roided up, 6’ tall and around 170. But Janet with her 55 strokes per 50-m length just mowed up 'em down and won 3 golds in the 400 free, 400 IM, and 800 free.
Also, another thing that I’ve noticed is that some cyclists and runners just do not seem to have much of the “feel for the water” that is so important. However, I think everyone can develop this over time, but it takes some people longer than others. Time and sincere effort in the water are mandatory. Also, given some people’s dramatic improvement using the Vasa trainer, you might want to look into getting one of these, espec if you have a hard time just getting to the pool. See the Vasa thread currently on page 1. The vasa will do nothing for your feel for the water but will improve your upper body, swim-specific muscular endurance, which is pretty crucial also.
Do 4’6" 8yr olds outswim you? There’s your answer.
Get back in the pool, put in more work, catch up to your buddies.
x3
You’re worrying about a 5%er/trying to justify your perceived weakness.
Physiology does play a part, I have stupidly large calves which impact my running, both in terms of injuries and energy expenditure…but the biggest limiter is the training I am prepared to do and can tolerate doing (the first point, ‘prepared to do’ is the critical limiter for about 90% of triathletes)
Do 4’6" 8yr olds outswim you? There’s your answer.
Get back in the pool, put in more work, catch up to your buddies.
Bingo!
Do 4’6" 8yr olds outswim you? There’s your answer.
Get back in the pool, put in more work, catch up to your buddies.
Bingo!
Nothing more depressing than getting lane 6 at a swim meet and a 12 y/o girl has lane 3 LOL and yes IIRC she won the heat.
I’ve been beaten by my fair share of 12 year old girls. I know I need to work on my form, I’m relying to much on my bike to get me back into races. So body type plays no part in swim success at lower levels?
Paul Yetter (coached Katie Hoff to international success among others) is of the opinion that anyone can get to AA time standards with good coaching and a great work ethic, but that physiology becomes a limiter after that. Which works out to:
17/18 girls:
500 yard free: 5:28
1650 free 18:58
400 LCM free: 4:54
1500 LCM free: 19:26
17/18 boys:
500 yard free:5:02
1650 yard free: 17:37
400 LCM free: 4:33
1500 LCM free: 18:04
I’m a 1:30/100M swimmer. Girls with arms slimmer than my wrist can kick my ass. Dudes who look like they’re one Twinky away from being a perfect sphere blast past me like they’re fricken’ harbor seals. I’ve got some guys in my Masters group who are pushing 70 years of age, and I can’t hope to stay on their feet on anything over 50 meters. Then there are young dudes who are ripped, and I cruise past them like they’re treading water.
Physiology matters, but technique and experience matter a whole lot more.
Hope this helps!
Brian
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I’ve been beaten by my fair share of 12 year old girls. I know I need to work on my form, I’m relying to much on my bike to get me back into races. So body type plays no part in swim success at lower levels?It can help in getting you to goal times, but “competent” triathlon times are glacial compared to low-level AG times, and not having an ideal body shape can be easily conquered by hours and a competent training plan. For most local races in this area, being able to hit a 5:40-5:50 for 500y will help vs the competition, or at the very least, keep you in the race, and that is very slow for any AG swimmer above age 12 (unless that swimmer is totally incompetent at freestyle, and I knew some like that).
The bigger issue to conquer is the headstart that all of the ex-fishes had in imprinting that muscle memory. I hadn’t swam seriously for 10 years (was never great for my age at any event, and only good at the 50/100 backstroke) when I randomly started lap swimming again, and was finishing at the very pointy end of local races in the swim within 4 months. Whole point is, even though I don’t swim much now, I’ve put enough time/effort into swimming in my life to become competent at triathlon swimming; it may seem like an disproportionate investment, but to make up some of the disadvantage of not swimming in the past, it takes a LOT of time and the right type of effort now.
Paul Yetter (coached Katie Hoff to international success among others) is of the opinion that anyone can get to AA time standards with good coaching and a great work ethic, but that physiology becomes a limiter after that. Which works out to:
17/18 girls:
500 yard free: 5:28
1650 free 18:58
400 LCM free: 4:54
1500 LCM free: 19:26
17/18 boys:
500 yard free:5:02
1650 yard free: 17:37
400 LCM free: 4:33
1500 LCM free: 18:04
With all due respect, I think Yetter’s perspective is a bit skewed since he is an elite coach:) This should prob be interpreted as “any distance swimmer guy swimming for me” can get down to 5:02 for the 500 (1:00.5/100 yd) and 17:37 for the 1650 (1:04/100 yd). When I was swimming in HS, the coaches set a goal that all senior boys should be able to go 1:05 for the 100 yd free, which is obv much more likely to be achieved by “any guy”. The 1:05 is probably attainable even by the majority (51%, maybe more) of adult onset guys under age 40 IF they are very motivated, and would roughly translate to around 6:15 for the 500 and about 22:00 for the 1650. OTOH, having watched your “average Joe” in the pool for many years, I think some guys will never get under 27 for the 1650 (1:38/100) as some people just seem to have very limited ability feel for the water. I think this is the reason the tri swim distances have remained relatively short to the B and R, cause for some people the 1500 m swim is actually like a 10K run, whereas for a good swimmer the 1500 is more like a 5K run.
It matters a great deal. No amount of hard work will allow you to excel at swimming if you do not have a favorable anatomy. That doesn’t mean that hard work, rigorous attention to form, and strength training will not help you maximize your potential. Some of us just have to live with it and be the best we can with the tools we have been handed to us. It has been over a 25 year struggle for me.
Do 4’6" 8yr olds outswim you? There’s your answer.
Get back in the pool, put in more work, catch up to your buddies.
like
Or put another way, does Ali Brownlee look like a typical swimmer when he is doing 17min for 1.5k?
A swimmer’s build - those shoulders - come from swimming.
In elite swimming, big hands and feet start to matter. In triathlon it really doesn’t. Stop making excuses and go to the pool if you want to get faster.
Paul Yetter (coached Katie Hoff to international success among others) is of the opinion that anyone can get to AA time standards with good coaching and a great work ethic, but that physiology becomes a limiter after that. Which works out to:
17/18 girls:
500 yard free: 5:28
1650 free 18:58
400 LCM free: 4:54
1500 LCM free: 19:26
17/18 boys:
500 yard free:5:02
1650 yard free: 17:37
400 LCM free: 4:33
1500 LCM free: 18:04
With all due respect, I think Yetter’s perspective is a bit skewed since he is an elite coach:) This should prob be interpreted as “any distance swimmer guy swimming for me” can get down to 5:02 for the 500 (1:00.5/100 yd) and 17:37 for the 1650 (1:04/100 yd). When I was swimming in HS, the coaches set a goal that all senior boys should be able to go 1:05 for the 100 yd free, which is obv much more likely to be achieved by “any guy”. The 1:05 is probably attainable even by the majority (51%, maybe more) of adult onset guys under age 40 IF they are very motivated, and would roughly translate to around 6:15 for the 500 and about 22:00 for the 1650. OTOH, having watched your “average Joe” in the pool for many years, I think some guys will never get under 27 for the 1650 (1:38/100) as some people just seem to have very limited ability feel for the water. I think this is the reason the tri swim distances have remained relatively short to the B and R, cause for some people the 1500 m swim is actually like a 10K run, whereas for a good swimmer the 1500 is more like a 5K run.
I think most triathletes could hit those if they put in a couple years of serious swimming. However, serious swimming involves a lot of doubles, so how you’d be training to make those times, AND keeping up the bike and run, I am not sure. My best 500 time was a 6:47 in high school. Two years of 30-40k weeks in college - not on a college team, just goofing off on my own (I majored in exercise phys - ask my family and you’ll hear “Allison majored in exercise in college”) took me to 5:45 for a 500 and 19:45 for a 1650. I was running during that, but I wasn’t cycling. And I was a college student, so I had a lot of free time.