How many, here? [the 2020 "against" ballot]

Have long trended toward fiscal conservatism, some libertarian leanings, social moderate, critic of muscular welfare state; never a GOP fan (or of politicians, generally), dispassionately voted for GWBush, then Johnson (before his gaffes); in recent elections, voted primarily to acknowledge the gift of living in a democratic society, while noting the mild absurdity that is our electoral process; sat out 2016 due to overarching disillusionment.
2020 position: even though (imo) you could learn more about foreign policy from your neighbor’s leafblower than from Joe Biden, and …

…I will vote against Trump no matter what, and each week yields another (often set of) reason(s) why.

The ballot machine won’t know I don’t “support” the challenger, or that mine is a vote against the incumbent, but given the blunt tool that is our electoral process and the current state of affairs (a lampoon of inverted loyalties), this is what it’s come to.

Show of hands- who else?

I’ll probably vote for Trump again.

The Democrats could post a small farm animal as their candidate and I’d vote for it as an opposition vote to the incumbent. It’s not that he’s Republican, it’s that he’s Donald Trump.

I won’t decide who I’m voting for until I get to see as much of what Trump is doing as the calendar allows and I know who the Dems are running. It’s gonna be hard for the Dem candidate to put together a platform that I will support. So Trump again, unless he really effs up and a Dem moderate emerges. It was encouraging to hear a few in the debates call illegal border crossing exactly that, so you never know.

Have long trended toward fiscal conservatism, some libertarian leanings, social moderate, critic of muscular welfare state; never a GOP fan (or of politicians, generally), dispassionately voted for GWBush, then Johnson (before his gaffes); in recent elections, voted primarily to acknowledge the gift of living in a democratic society, while noting the mild absurdity that is our electoral process; sat out 2016 due to overarching disillusionment.
2020 position: even though (imo) you could learn more about foreign policy from your neighbor’s leafblower than from Joe Biden, and …

…I will vote against Trump no matter what, and each week yields another (often set of) reason(s) why.

The ballot machine won’t know I don’t “support” the challenger, or that mine is a vote against the incumbent, but given the blunt tool that is our electoral process and the current state of affairs (a lampoon of inverted loyalties), this is what it’s come to.

Show of hands- who else?

what you write sounds like me, with a few provisos and exceptions. first, it depends on what you consider a “muscular welfare state.” i don’t believe in free college and i don’t believe in no-cost, no-deductible, no-copay health insurance. but i’m a fan of social security and medicare. you decide whether that’s muscular. i did not vote for bush nor did i vote for johnson tho i’ve interviewed him (for slowtwitch) and he’s a great guy.

and, i would never, ever, ever sit out an election.

i think that biden and mueller suffer from the same problem: they’re very smart, as smart as they ever were, which is pretty damned smart, but probably because of their ages they don’t present well publicly.

i would love it if chris cuomo moderated a straight-up, 30min, or 60min, conversation between biden (or buttigieg, or castro) and warren. where the answers weren’t limited to 15sec. what we had the last 2 nights was politics jeopardy, except we didn’t have alex trebek knowing all the right answers.

if i interviewed kamala harris, who i like, you’d find out more in 10min what she really knows about health care, what she intends to do about health care, than in all the accumulated interviews and debates she’s participated in, and that’s not a brag - there are at least 2 and probably more people in this forum who i know for certain could do it better, and with more data and knowledge at hand, than i could. cuomo reasonably well knows shit. not so many TV interviewers do.

i might vote for trump over williamson. probably not but maybe. the other 19? i’d vote for any of them over trump. not because i like them, but because our country is waaaaay too transactional, favoring outcomes over process. if you are outcome-based; if you forgive all because of (let’s say) the economy; then nothing separates you from strongman voters in any fascist country over the past century.

Thank you, Dan. Appreciate hearing your (and others’) candid thoughts. And completely agree re: your debate-format critique and suggestions.

The Democrats could post a small farm animal as their candidate and I’d vote for it as an opposition vote to the incumbent. It’s not that he’s Republican, it’s that he’s Donald Trump.

THIS

Have long trended toward fiscal conservatism, some libertarian leanings, social moderate, critic of muscular welfare state; never a GOP fan (or of politicians, generally), dispassionately voted for GWBush, then Johnson (before his gaffes); in recent elections, voted primarily to acknowledge the gift of living in a democratic society, while noting the mild absurdity that is our electoral process; sat out 2016 due to overarching disillusionment.

2020 position: even though (imo) you could learn more about foreign policy from your neighbor’s leafblower than from Joe Biden, and …

…I will vote against Trump no matter what, and each week yields another (often set of) reason(s) why.

The ballot machine won’t know I don’t “support” the challenger, or that mine is a vote against the incumbent, but given the blunt tool that is our electoral process and the current state of affairs (a lampoon of inverted loyalties), this is what it’s come to.

Show of hands- who else?

what you write sounds like me, with a few provisos and exceptions. first, it depends on what you consider a “muscular welfare state.” i don’t believe in free college and i don’t believe in no-cost, no-deductible, no-copay health insurance. but i’m a fan of social security and medicare. you decide whether that’s muscular. i did not vote for bush nor did i vote for johnson tho i’ve interviewed him (for slowtwitch) and he’s a great guy.

and, i would never, ever, ever sit out an election.

i think that biden and mueller suffer from the same problem: they’re very smart, as smart as they ever were, which is pretty damned smart, but probably because of their ages they don’t present well publicly.

i would love it if chris cuomo moderated a straight-up, 30min, or 60min, conversation between biden (or buttigieg, or castro) and warren. where the answers weren’t limited to 15sec. what we had the last 2 nights was politics jeopardy, except we didn’t have alex trebek knowing all the right answers.

if i interviewed kamala harris, who i like, you’d find out more in 10min what she really knows about health care, what she intends to do about health care, than in all the accumulated interviews and debates she’s participated in, and that’s not a brag - there are at least 2 and probably more people in this forum who i know for certain could do it better, and with more data and knowledge at hand, than i could. cuomo reasonably well knows shit. not so many TV interviewers do.

i might vote for trump over williamson. probably not but maybe. the other 19? i’d vote for any of them over trump. not because i like them, but because our country is waaaaay too transactional, favoring outcomes over process. if you are outcome-based; if you forgive all because of (let’s say) the economy; then nothing separates you from strongman voters in any fascist country over the past century.

You and I have to share a beer (after my free bike fit, of course).

I need to meet the person who is:
Witty enough to make the statement, "what we had the last 2 nights was politics jeopardy, except we didn’t have alex trebek knowing all the right answers"Rationale/smart enough to see Cuomo’s intelligence and effective interview styleAngry and enraged enough to throw all cerebral analysis right out the window and say, “i might vote for trump over williamson. probably not but maybe”
Are you serious? Williamson? Did you see that space cadet? I would vote for the podium she was standing in front of before I voted for her.

I need a list of people who you would definitely not vote for if running against Trump. Give me three people, please. Inquiring minds need to know!

I truly cannot believe that you put Trump up against Williamson and say, “Well, this one’s a toss up…”

sounds close. I would prefer a small farm animal to some of the democrat candidates (and the current republican). I will not vote for trump. I will not vote for a democrat simply as a vote against trump. I would like to vote for a democrat, but depending on who get the nomination, I may vote 3rd party again.

Have long trended toward fiscal conservatism, some libertarian leanings, social moderate, critic of muscular welfare state; never a GOP fan (or of politicians, generally), dispassionately voted for GWBush, then Johnson (before his gaffes); in recent elections, voted primarily to acknowledge the gift of living in a democratic society, while noting the mild absurdity that is our electoral process; sat out 2016 due to overarching disillusionment.
2020 position: even though (imo) you could learn more about foreign policy from your neighbor’s leafblower than from Joe Biden, and …

…I will vote against Trump no matter what, and each week yields another (often set of) reason(s) why.

The ballot machine won’t know I don’t “support” the challenger, or that mine is a vote against the incumbent, but given the blunt tool that is our electoral process and the current state of affairs (a lampoon of inverted loyalties), this is what it’s come to.

Show of hands- who else?

what you write sounds like me, with a few provisos and exceptions. first, it depends on what you consider a “muscular welfare state.” i don’t believe in free college and i don’t believe in no-cost, no-deductible, no-copay health insurance. but i’m a fan of social security and medicare. you decide whether that’s muscular. i did not vote for bush nor did i vote for johnson tho i’ve interviewed him (for slowtwitch) and he’s a great guy.

and, i would never, ever, ever sit out an election.

i think that biden and mueller suffer from the same problem: they’re very smart, as smart as they ever were, which is pretty damned smart, but probably because of their ages they don’t present well publicly.

i would love it if chris cuomo moderated a straight-up, 30min, or 60min, conversation between biden (or buttigieg, or castro) and warren. where the answers weren’t limited to 15sec. what we had the last 2 nights was politics jeopardy, except we didn’t have alex trebek knowing all the right answers.

if i interviewed kamala harris, who i like, you’d find out more in 10min what she really knows about health care, what she intends to do about health care, than in all the accumulated interviews and debates she’s participated in, and that’s not a brag - there are at least 2 and probably more people in this forum who i know for certain could do it better, and with more data and knowledge at hand, than i could. cuomo reasonably well knows shit. not so many TV interviewers do.

i might vote for trump over williamson. probably not but maybe. the other 19? i’d vote for any of them over trump. not because i like them, but because our country is waaaaay too transactional, favoring outcomes over process. if you are outcome-based; if you forgive all because of (let’s say) the economy; then nothing separates you from strongman voters in any fascist country over the past century.

You and I have to share a beer (after my free bike fit, of course).

I need to meet the person who is:
Witty enough to make the statement, "what we had the last 2 nights was politics jeopardy, except we didn’t have alex trebek knowing all the right answers"Rationale/smart enough to see Cuomo’s intelligence and effective interview styleAngry and enraged enough to throw all cerebral analysis right out the window and say, "i might vote for trump over williamson. probably not but maybe"Are you serious? Williamson? Did you see that space cadet? I would vote for the podium she was standing in front of before I voted for her.

I need a list of people who you would definitely not vote for if running against Trump. Give me three people, please. Inquiring minds need to know!

I truly cannot believe that you put Trump up against Williamson and say, “Well, this one’s a toss up…”

not fair. i didn’t know the podium was on the ballot. if i’d known that i’d have chosen the podium too.

the value of williamson over trump is… maybe… that she knows what she doesn’t know. that and she isn’t a rapist. a fraud? a con? possibly. but afaik she didn’t stiff a lot of small guy contractors. (do you think the proverbial cabinet maker owed $23,000, that trump BKd on, is wearing a MAGA hat?)

as for the other 19 dem candidates, who is the one i like/trust the least? the one i like the least is delaney. he’s running for vice principal. i could easily see him in junior high with a paddle with holes drilled in it. i could see him ordering the kid in woodshop to make the very paddle to be used against him. but he might be an okay president. who do i like the most? probably andrew yang. won’t say he’s my choice for POTUS, but this guy’s star is going to rise before it falls back to zero.

So is it o.k. to say that all of you that will vote for anyone but Trump all love the person you are voting for? I ask because that is all many of us have heard when we said we voted for Trump because of anyone but Hillary? This is not a but Hillary comment, but a hope that maybe there can be some understanding that many of us felt the same way you feel about Trump, but about Hillary. It’s just a shame we can’t find a happy middle.

So is it o.k. to say that all of you that will vote for anyone but Trump all love the person you are voting for? I ask because that is all many of us have heard when we said we voted for Trump because of anyone but Hillary? This is not a but Hillary comment, but a hope that maybe there can be some understanding that many of us felt the same way you feel about Trump, but about Hillary. It’s just a shame we can’t find a happy middle.

there is no comparison to trump. any comparison is a false one, unless you want to compare him to some really infamous people. the vote for trump, if it was not made enthusiastically, was a vote against any democrat. any democrat. not hillary. i’m not falling for all those excuses any longer. states rights. strong defense. fiscal responsablity. honor and dignity in the white house. hillary wasn’t exactly JFK, but she was a perfectly safe candidate.

williamson is ben carson. clueless. not depraved. not craven. if you voted for trump in 2016, and you realized a year in the mistake you made, okay. if you’re still a trump supporter today, you’ve got MAGA tatooed to your soul.

So is it o.k. to say that all of you that will vote for anyone but Trump all love the person you are voting for? I ask because that is all many of us have heard when we said we voted for Trump because of anyone but Hillary? This is not a but Hillary comment, but a hope that maybe there can be some understanding that many of us felt the same way you feel about Trump, but about Hillary. It’s just a shame we can’t find a happy middle.

there is no comparison to trump. any comparison is a false one, unless you want to compare him to some really infamous people. the vote for trump, if it was not made enthusiastically, was a vote against any democrat. any democrat. not hillary. i’m not falling for all those excuses any longer. states rights. strong defense. fiscal responsablity. honor and dignity in the white house. hillary wasn’t exactly JFK, but she was a perfectly safe candidate.

williamson is ben carson. clueless. not depraved. not craven. if you voted for trump in 2016, and you realized a year in the mistake you made, okay. if you’re still a trump supporter today, you’ve got MAGA tatooed to your soul.

Haha. Hillary is a despicable person. Corrupt, above the law, elitest, liar, criminal. Not what I would call perfectly safe. She deserved to lose. That doesn’t mean Trump is good, but I’d still take Trump over Hillary.

So is it o.k. to say that all of you that will vote for anyone but Trump all love the person you are voting for? I ask because that is all many of us have heard when we said we voted for Trump because of anyone but Hillary? This is not a but Hillary comment, but a hope that maybe there can be some understanding that many of us felt the same way you feel about Trump, but about Hillary. It’s just a shame we can’t find a happy middle.

there is no comparison to trump. any comparison is a false one, unless you want to compare him to some really infamous people. the vote for trump, if it was not made enthusiastically, was a vote against any democrat. any democrat. not hillary. i’m not falling for all those excuses any longer. states rights. strong defense. fiscal responsablity. honor and dignity in the white house. hillary wasn’t exactly JFK, but she was a perfectly safe candidate.

williamson is ben carson. clueless. not depraved. not craven. if you voted for trump in 2016, and you realized a year in the mistake you made, okay. if you’re still a trump supporter today, you’ve got MAGA tatooed to your soul.

Haha. Hillary is a despicable person. Corrupt, above the law, elitest, liar, criminal. Not what I would call perfectly safe. She deserved to lose. That doesn’t mean Trump is good, but I’d still take Trump over Hillary.

Not to mention what she would have done to the SC, what she would have us doing in the name of saving us from global warming, what she would have done to further socialize health insurance…

Dan kinda pulling a “no true Scotsman” there, also assuming he knows what other people think and why they act, and showing his left partisan bias, as he often does.

So is it o.k. to say that all of you that will vote for anyone but Trump all love the person you are voting for? I ask because that is all many of us have heard when we said we voted for Trump because of anyone but Hillary? This is not a but Hillary comment, but a hope that maybe there can be some understanding that many of us felt the same way you feel about Trump, but about Hillary. It’s just a shame we can’t find a happy middle.

there is no comparison to trump. any comparison is a false one, unless you want to compare him to some really infamous people. the vote for trump, if it was not made enthusiastically, was a vote against any democrat. any democrat. not hillary. i’m not falling for all those excuses any longer. states rights. strong defense. fiscal responsablity. honor and dignity in the white house. hillary wasn’t exactly JFK, but she was a perfectly safe candidate.

williamson is ben carson. clueless. not depraved. not craven. if you voted for trump in 2016, and you realized a year in the mistake you made, okay. if you’re still a trump supporter today, you’ve got MAGA tatooed to your soul.

Haha. Hillary is a despicable person. Corrupt, above the law, elitest, liar, criminal. Not what I would call perfectly safe. She deserved to lose. That doesn’t mean Trump is good, but I’d still take Trump over Hillary.

of course i can’t say for sure, because i only know you from your posts, but i get the strong sense that if the (D)s name was stillary, frillary or plillary, you’d still have voted for jabba-the-trump and come 2020 it’ll be shampoo, rinse, repeat.

So is it o.k. to say that all of you that will vote for anyone but Trump all love the person you are voting for? I ask because that is all many of us have heard when we said we voted for Trump because of anyone but Hillary? This is not a but Hillary comment, but a hope that maybe there can be some understanding that many of us felt the same way you feel about Trump, but about Hillary. It’s just a shame we can’t find a happy middle.

there is no comparison to trump. any comparison is a false one, unless you want to compare him to some really infamous people. the vote for trump, if it was not made enthusiastically, was a vote against any democrat. any democrat. not hillary. i’m not falling for all those excuses any longer. states rights. strong defense. fiscal responsablity. honor and dignity in the white house. hillary wasn’t exactly JFK, but she was a perfectly safe candidate.

williamson is ben carson. clueless. not depraved. not craven. if you voted for trump in 2016, and you realized a year in the mistake you made, okay. if you’re still a trump supporter today, you’ve got MAGA tatooed to your soul.

Haha. Hillary is a despicable person. Corrupt, above the law, elitest, liar, criminal. Not what I would call perfectly safe. She deserved to lose. That doesn’t mean Trump is good, but I’d still take Trump over Hillary.

of course i can’t say for sure, because i only know you from your posts, but i get the strong sense that if the (D)s name was stillary, frillary or plillary, you’d still have voted for jabba-the-trump and come 2020 it’ll be shampoo, rinse, repeat.

You don’t know me. But I probably would have voted republican even if Bernie won the nomination. My friends will tell you though that I have had a hatred for Hillary for many, many years. Way before she ran for president.

So is it o.k. to say that all of you that will vote for anyone but Trump all love the person you are voting for? I ask because that is all many of us have heard when we said we voted for Trump because of anyone but Hillary? This is not a but Hillary comment, but a hope that maybe there can be some understanding that many of us felt the same way you feel about Trump, but about Hillary. It’s just a shame we can’t find a happy middle.

there is no comparison to trump. any comparison is a false one, unless you want to compare him to some really infamous people. the vote for trump, if it was not made enthusiastically, was a vote against any democrat. any democrat. not hillary. i’m not falling for all those excuses any longer. states rights. strong defense. fiscal responsablity. honor and dignity in the white house. hillary wasn’t exactly JFK, but she was a perfectly safe candidate.

williamson is ben carson. clueless. not depraved. not craven. if you voted for trump in 2016, and you realized a year in the mistake you made, okay. if you’re still a trump supporter today, you’ve got MAGA tatooed to your soul.

Haha. Hillary is a despicable person. Corrupt, above the law, elitest, liar, criminal. Not what I would call perfectly safe. She deserved to lose. That doesn’t mean Trump is good, but I’d still take Trump over Hillary.

Not to mention what she would have done to the SC, what she would have us doing in the name of saving us from global warming, what she would have done to further socialize health insurance…

Dan kinda pulling a “no true Scotsman” there, also assuming he knows what other people think and why they act, and showing his left partisan bias, as he often does.

Yeh, the partisanship is starting to get a little over the top. Anyone who wishes DJTs kids to be led away in hancuffs and “likes” Kamala Harris may be spending too much time in the California desert sun. DJT has his faults but what he has done to recover this country from the Obama disaster deserves another four years. And with this joke of a democratic candidate pool, it’s pretty obvious the DJT bashing here will go on for another 6 years. But in the meantime, enjoy the economy and your 401Ks.

So is it o.k. to say that all of you that will vote for anyone but Trump all love the person you are voting for? I ask because that is all many of us have heard when we said we voted for Trump because of anyone but Hillary? This is not a but Hillary comment, but a hope that maybe there can be some understanding that many of us felt the same way you feel about Trump, but about Hillary. It’s just a shame we can’t find a happy middle.

there is no comparison to trump. any comparison is a false one, unless you want to compare him to some really infamous people. the vote for trump, if it was not made enthusiastically, was a vote against any democrat. any democrat. not hillary. i’m not falling for all those excuses any longer. states rights. strong defense. fiscal responsablity. honor and dignity in the white house. hillary wasn’t exactly JFK, but she was a perfectly safe candidate.

williamson is ben carson. clueless. not depraved. not craven. if you voted for trump in 2016, and you realized a year in the mistake you made, okay. if you’re still a trump supporter today, you’ve got MAGA tatooed to your soul.

Haha. Hillary is a despicable person. Corrupt, above the law, elitest, liar, criminal. Not what I would call perfectly safe. She deserved to lose. That doesn’t mean Trump is good, but I’d still take Trump over Hillary.

of course i can’t say for sure, because i only know you from your posts, but i get the strong sense that if the (D)s name was stillary, frillary or plillary, you’d still have voted for jabba-the-trump and come 2020 it’ll be shampoo, rinse, repeat.

You don’t know me. But I probably would have voted republican even if Bernie won the nomination. My friends will tell you though that I have had a hatred for Hillary for many, many years. Way before she ran for president.

i don’t know you, but i don’t anticipate you advocating for any of the 20 candidates for the democratic party against individual-1.

It seems to me that the purest candidate - one that really stands for the left agenda and is polling well currently is Elizebeth Warren.

I also just sent a small contribution to one of the other candidates (who has currently not met the minimum) just to keep them in the game longer - and see if they get more traction.

Ms. Warren is the polar opposite of DJT and everything he is and stands for. She might also get a slight nudge being a potential first “women President” so it would be a good contest.

There is no middle ground with those two on the ballot and no one will have to split hairs in making their decision. I’d like to see them on the ballot and find out who and what people in this country really want.

Let the chips fall and then everyone get behind the winner - which of course is never going to happen.

So is it o.k. to say that all of you that will vote for anyone but Trump all love the person you are voting for? I ask because that is all many of us have heard when we said we voted for Trump because of anyone but Hillary? This is not a but Hillary comment, but a hope that maybe there can be some understanding that many of us felt the same way you feel about Trump, but about Hillary. It’s just a shame we can’t find a happy middle.

there is no comparison to trump. any comparison is a false one, unless you want to compare him to some really infamous people. the vote for trump, if it was not made enthusiastically, was a vote against any democrat. any democrat. not hillary. i’m not falling for all those excuses any longer. states rights. strong defense. fiscal responsablity. honor and dignity in the white house. hillary wasn’t exactly JFK, but she was a perfectly safe candidate.

williamson is ben carson. clueless. not depraved. not craven. if you voted for trump in 2016, and you realized a year in the mistake you made, okay. if you’re still a trump supporter today, you’ve got MAGA tatooed to your soul.

Haha. Hillary is a despicable person. Corrupt, above the law, elitest, liar, criminal. Not what I would call perfectly safe. She deserved to lose. That doesn’t mean Trump is good, but I’d still take Trump over Hillary.

of course i can’t say for sure, because i only know you from your posts, but i get the strong sense that if the (D)s name was stillary, frillary or plillary, you’d still have voted for jabba-the-trump and come 2020 it’ll be shampoo, rinse, repeat.

You don’t know me. But I probably would have voted republican even if Bernie won the nomination. My friends will tell you though that I have had a hatred for Hillary for many, many years. Way before she ran for president.

i don’t know you, but i don’t anticipate you advocating for any of the 20 candidates for the democratic party against individual-1.

We’ll I did show interest I. Ryan earlier this week. Yet no one answered my query regarding why he is considered 2nd tier.

I did work with Hickenlooper when he was mayor years ago. We really did like him until he became Governor. He became beholden to donors when he moved up the ladder. He no longer makes his own decisions.

I do support single payer Healthcare, but I’m not sure how to fund it. I disagree with Medicare for all as I don’t believe you will have a robust healthcare system when you pay docs 1/3 - 2/3 their rates.

I disagree with open borders.
And I think people need to pay for their student loan debt. Just like I did.

Not many candidates are a good fit for me.