So with CDA having a new bike course, does this race become a classic like IMLP or IMOO? I understand the old bike course was kind of ugly, but it seems that by most accounts the new one is beautiful and challenging. I’ve gotta admit…I like the more challening courses - a beautiful and challenging bike course is a draw for me to an IM destination. SO, with CDA’s tough swim and new bike, has CDA just upped it’s stock on the hard-core IM destination chart?
I have done LP and just did CDA on Sunday. I loved LP, but I actually liked CDA a little better. I loved the bike course at CDA. I think CDA will continue to build a strong reputation as one on the best NASports courses!! Can’t wait to do it again in '09.
Wisconsin is harder
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Agreed, Wisconsin is harder than LP, its non stop steep rollers that just kill your legs. I’ve never done the CDA course.
I think “hard to figure out” is more important that “harder.” That is to say, a course where you can make a lot of little mistakes that add up to one big one (bike split) by the time you figure out you’ve boogered yourself.
I believe this makes WI the hardest, in this regard. Up, down, left right, short, steep, do I shift/stand/sit, etc. You’re almost always making a decision and bad ones add up. I’ve raced WI twice, 3 x training camps.
I believe LP is the next hardest. Not sure how the total gain stacks up but you are always doing one thing for a long time. Not too hard to figure out that if you have a 40-50’ climb at the end of each lap you might want to take it easy. However, the piece between Upper Jay and Hasselton Road kind of snuck up on me. I watch my IF go up .02, even though I was riding very conservatively. However, the run at LP is the hardest of them all, I feel. Seen the race twice, did a camp there earlier this month.
I think I would put IMKY and IMCDA at about even. Actually, KY a tick harder, as it has more hills but mostly rolling stuff you can almost roll over. Extra credit for what is sure to be a hot race and the scenery is awesome. Both runs are flat, though CDA has more turns and the hill at mile 6-7, a couple very small ones in the neighborhood. Very small. KY is flat, flat, mostly out and back. CDA’s weather is relatively unpredictable, in that conditions seem to change quite a bit from Wed to Sunday. KY is sure to be friggin hot.
FL–flat, fast, consistent conditions, flat, boring and flat. Not an FL fan, though I can appreciate it’s appeal. I have no experience with CA. I miss IMCali <>
Agreed, Wisconsin is harder than LP, its non stop steep rollers that just kill your legs. I’ve never done the CDA course.
Yep, definitely, Wisconsin is a tough one. I doubt I’ll ever be back there, I really didn’t like the bike course. I agree, tougher than LP. Seems like the new CdA course (which I haven’t seen, only heard about) has more short/steep stuff than long stuff, so it’s probably closer to Wis than LP. Can’t wait for IMLP, just over three weeks now!
-C
I disagree about the LP run being hard. I think its a pretty easy run course. There are only really those 2 short steep hills per lap, while all the other hills are extremely low grade or rollers that dont really slow you down that much. Its pretty much a flat run.
OK, let me re-phrase this for all those who went way off topic…for those who just completed the new CDA course, and who have also done MOO or LP, what do you think?
(I don’t care about LP vs Moo…it’s been beaten to death…or FL or KY or the LP run. I just want some perspective on how the new CDA bike course stacks up to the two other tough courses, LP and MOO - both of which I’ve done)
Well, I’ve done IMWI and IMCdA (this year), and I honestly thought CdA was a tougher bike course. Of course, I’m from the Gulf Coast, and our idea of a tough hill is an overpass.
I thought both were pretty tough courses, but those climbs at CdA really burned me up on the 2nd loop. And far-less-than-ideal pacing on the first loop didn’t help.
have you done lp? the hill in town is a MILE long. yes, you think that you are done at the light but it continues after you make the left and continues after you make the right onto the out-and-back and doesn’t end until you get to the lake. that’s a mile with the first part brutally steep. you have to do that twice. which other marathon courses in im have a hill like that in them (nevermind 2 of them)?
I’ve raced all of them.
IMW is definitely the most challenging as it really breaks up your rhythm (which can lead to lots of power spikes and ultimately undo your performance). I also think the hills on the run at IMW are actually cumulatively tougher.
I’d disagree what IMLP is next toughest. I actually think that LP is really predictable and easy to measure your efforts on both the bike and the run (not to mention that the swim there is the easiest because it’s absolutely impossible to get off course).
As for CdA…See my earlier description in another thread. The early part of each lap (first 15 miles) is pretty easy with a slight hump that you ride over–and back. The middle of each lap has some challenging rollers which can tap you out. All but one of the climbs can be seen as you approach so there are no surprises and you can attack the hills with momentum (unlike IMW). There are no climbs longer than 6 minutes so the duration of each climb doesn’t compare to the 3-bears at LP. The final 15 miles of each lap is progressively downhill/flat, but the prevailing winds can cause this section to be more frustrating than one might expect).
I’d rank the NA Sports courses in this order (of the ones that I’ve raced or trained on extensively):
- Wisconsin–hardest
- CdA–the new course will definitely work you and I think the overall elevation gain is greater than LP.
- Canada–Richter and Yellow combined with some rollers, wind, and heat…
- LP–Not an easy course…However, a good, steady effort can be metered all day (you mentally know EXACTLY when the climbs will hit you on the bike/run)
- Arizona
- Florida
Just my $.02,
Puskas
I thought IMMoo bike course is tougher than the new CDA course. Each loop of the new CDA course has around 18 fairly hilly miles that compare to the 40 hilly miles that comprise each of the loops on the Moo course. The funny thing about the CDA course is that the whole elevation range within those 18 hilly miles is probably no more than about 200-250 feet, but there just seems to be a whole lot of hill action within that narrow range.
Yes I have done LP. Only that one steep section of the mile into town is bad. Even if you walk that section it is still a fast run course.
what was your run time in lp? i’ve gone sub 3:30 there and it is a very difficult run course. i don’t see how a marathon course with 2 ridiculously hard 1 mile hills is “fast.” you also are ignoring the ski jump hill, which is not easy – particularly on the 2nd loop. it’s not that long but it causes 2 more miles to be much slower than whatever your average pace is. any marathon that has 4 of the 26.2 miles dramatically slower than the rest is not a fast course.
rather than relying on anecdotal evidence that inevitably is grossly incorrect, why not just look at the bike course profiles, which are entirely objective:
http://www.nasports.com/compare/comparebike.php
graph all of the imna courses and see for yourself. anyone who actually believes that imw or imcda is “tougher” than imc or imlp simply is ignoring reality. also, what does “LP is really predictable and easy to measure your efforts on both the bike and the run” mean? how is one course more “predictable” than another? you should know where every hill is on the course you are doing so i don’t see how hills ever could not be “predictable.” moreover, even if a hill is “predictable,” how does that make it any more easy?
also, while you are on the course elevation page, switch to the run comparison and graph out the run courses. you will see that there is no comparison – lp’s is exponentially more difficult than any of the others. the mile long hill in town that you to do twice is more than twice as big as any hill on any other run course. once again, objective data is much more useful than anecdotal evidence from people who are detached from reality.
3:18 run. I think its a pretty fast course, the ski jump hill isnt anything too tough. The pro dudes were running sub 2:50 last year, I think that means its a pretty fast run course.
It’s hardly anecdotal…It’s experiential. I’ve personally raced on every one of the courses and I’m familiar with them.
Judging by the inconsistency of the GPS elevation data that is frequently posted on this site, I’d hardly describe the use of those graphs as entirely objective.
Further, memorizing the location, length, and grade of 2 hills is MUCH more predictable/easy than memorizing 15+ hills per lap (or even more at IMW)…Unless you live close to a race, it will always be easier to meter your efforts for a few longer climbs than for repeated, shorter efforts.
But hey, I’m just giving my opinion based upon my experience ON COURSE at each of these races. Your experience looking at the course profiles may be different.
Cheers,
Puskas
I agree with rich, IM WI is hardest because bad decisions build up. Not to mention the weather has been horrible more than 1/2 of the years.