How do Bike Shops compete with Ebay?

Triathlon Forum
1

Also, for you bike shop people, what attitude do you have towards someone who has just aggregated pretty much a frame, wheelset, and gearing, pedals, forks, etc…they have bought on Ebay, and he or she brings it to you, and wants to pay you to put it all together? “Here’s everything I’ve chosen, and here’s the Campy Chorus over here in this box…can you put this all together? Charge me for the odds and ends I don’t have, or a stem or something I didn’t get, and, of course for the labor and what not.”

Instead of making four or five hundred on a complete bike, or even a build up on a new frame the shop sold, now, it’s labor and some smaller parts. I therefore can’t imagine much excitement on that end, if you “Ebayed A Nice Road Bike.”

Seems to be what a lot of people are doing, and I’ll bet there are some frustrations with that at the bike shop end, and I bet an arm and a leg is charged for compiling the bike. They just got completely cut out of the whole deal minus some small parts and are charging for labor.

And if you mention Ebay to the bike shop person, they’ll go into their spiel about “service and warranty.” And, the wierd thing is, I think the public is so jaded about that warranty bullshit, WHETHER RIGHT OR WRONG, that whenever something goes wrong, on that line, and you come back to them, there’s usually a fight about whether it was covered. This happens in all of our lives with insurance and other financial matters. So, people now are taking their chances, and decided “up yours,” quit gouging us, we’ll take our chances.

This is four year old news. I know. We know this. There is a huge online market for used bikes. Hence, I was waiting on something like, preownedbikes.com. A big outfit sees this, and this is a bright idea. Their inventory is meager now, but, just you watch, that will work. It will work if the inventory gets larger than it is.

Back to planet earth, where there are physical structures called “Bike Shops,” Retail prices themselves, retail in bike shops, whether it’s a complete bike or a frame, or a set of components, are just insanely overpriced compared to that exact model you can find on ebay. This is no news here, for sure. But it’s true. And sometimes I wonder if merchants know this. Hell, we know they do, because they are out on Ebay themselves with their own little shop on Ebay. Plus, few of them obviously, don’t desire the fees on merchants for customers who use VISA or a credit card, therefore, want it paid in cash.

Sure, there’s no warranty. Sure, it’s used, or maybe it’s not. It could still be in the box. Yes, there’s the possiblity of fraud, but, basically, if you aren’t stupid, YOU ARE STUPID, if you don’t go to EBAY first, now.

I was looking for a comfort bike for my wife today. Went to the local shops. Same model, make, etc. I found in two shops was 400 more than that bike on Ebay. I could care less about a warranty. Also, no sales tax.

And I’m not surprised.

2

Ebay = online swap meet, sight unseen, unknown history of products.

LBS = Warranties, customer service, product returns if defective.

Ebay is not really that much cheaper than getting a ‘deal’ from your LBS. If you are loyal and know the folks, or are sponsored (e.g. a club member), you can beat the Ebay method and get quality gear with a history.

You can never know the history of the parts you get on Ebay, like frames/forks, they could have been crashed and there may be underlying problems.

I only use it to buy old gear that shops cant find anymore, like aero bottles and brakes.

**SUPPORT YOUR LBS - **THE SPORT NEEDS YOUR PATRONAGE TO STAY ALIVE

This is for real, please support your LBS!!!

3

"Warranties, customer service, product returns if defective. "

I enjoy your posts here.

Let me just play the devil’s advocate.

That’s just what I said you’d say. I’ll go through your three nouns: Warranties mostly are argued about, just like an insurance adjuster coming to give you an estimate on a broken pipe. Yep, it’s covered, but who’s satisfied after that’s over? Not me.

Two. Customer service means you are fixing to charge me money. Three: Product returns: see what I said about warranties.

That’s all you guys have going for you. It’s over, dude.

I think the public, not everybody, is saying “up yours.” Look at the action going on, every minute on that sucker. For god’s sakes, just go over ther right now. Imagine if your shop had that business. You’d be a millionaire.

For every customer you have coming in, there are 20 who bought that bike from somebody from Michigan, or something and could care less.

For every customer you get, trust me, there are 20, who walked in, laughed, walked out, went on Ebay and bought a bike they are happy with, with NO WARRANTY.

We’ll take our chances.

Please address my statement about merchant fees on credit card purchases of bikes. Is it NOT TRUE bike shops will lower their prices for bikes retail if the customer PAYS CASH, as opposed to a credit card, because the shop does not want to be charged that merchant fee?

4

I don’t know why you finished your title with a question mark, because you’re looking for fight not an answer.

User of both bike shops and ebay. May they both live on.

Brian

5

tires: LBS “Dude, I don’t think we get those anymore…” 20minutes to town+5minutes discussion.
EBAY, 5minutes buyitnow. DONE deal. Hey the tires were so cheap that the LBS could have bought them and resold them to me and I would have been glad to pay.

Tri/TT bikes They do not know or care abt. Only marginally better on road bikes. they saw a track bike once.

Training? not a clue.

Riders you bet, friends yes, I buy all I can from them but for years of relationship, they still haven’t done one iota of their homework.

I support the shop that has what I need. If I can not find it I go to Internet.

I tried explaining what I need from LBS. Just interest, just help in buying bikes and parts, would pay for their time and advice. I get a blank. If I go to shops almost anywhere in US I get the service appropriate to the questions I ask.

Get real dude. What does the LBS have to offer?

6

Here’s a short story on the ebay vs lbs thing. I don’t use a lbs for anything and haven’t for 22+ years (when I discoverd Bike Nashbar). Because of my non-“support your local bike shop no matter what” way, I’m somewhat a persona non-grata in these shops. But that’s okay, because I can buy everything I need from mail-order or ebay, and I can do all my own meching. Well, 2 weeks ago I decided that I would get the little lady a mountain bike for Christmas (Randall T - don’t mention this to her!!!) and began shopping around in catalogs and online. I found a brand new '04 Trek 6700 on ebay in her size and began the watch. The next day I’m driving past a lbs and see that they have an inventory reduction sale sign in their window so I pull in. They have the exact same '04 Trek 6700 on sale for $630. I thanked them for their time (I made it short and sweet so that they couldn’t complain - too much - when they saw the wifey on her new ebay bike) and continued to watch the auction on ebay. It ended at $665. The next day I called the lbs and bought the bike over the phone. The owner 'bout dropped a load in his pants! vo2max bought a bike from a lbs…and his to boot!

Moral of the story is this: If you have the best deal, I’ll buy whatever I need from you.

7

Diff’rent strokes for diff’rent shops…

If it’s a 100% bike shop (i.e. all bikes and bike accessories and maybe clothes, all the time, regardless of what species mix they choose to have) I agree they are fighting an increasingly losing battle against mailorder and can/should be bitter about certain aspects of that fight. I agree they have little to argue with (warranty, service, etc), and they either have to do an exceptional job of providing those personal touches or diversify somehow (see below).

But some shops don’t care and a few of those may (or should) even appreciate what’s happening. These are the shops for which bikes are not their sole offering. Smallish hybrid shops who cater to seasonal activities (bike & ski is popular in the upper midwest, for example), who don’t want to put themselves at greater financial risk by carrying mega-bucks of inventory for a dwindling window-shopper customer base. Why not exploit the niche you describe: assembling and augmenting a box of eBay’d gear? Bikes don’t bring in the $ for shops…accessories do. Tom D has ranted about the $ lost on labor, but what if that was a higher percentage of your total work (i.e. more wrenching, less retail)…wouldn’t there be a point where you’re at least breaking even on the labor? Why NOT charge a premium for assembly on bikes “not bought here”? You need not make the premium big enough to offset the savings your eBay guy achieved, and you subtly encourage folks to buy local that way.

I use my LBS the same way several other posters mentioned. It doesn’t hurt to have a 10yr relationship with them, spanning two sets of ownership, either. They have no problem with wrenching for the online crowd and it’s for the reasons I mentioned above (tho they charge no premium). I also go online for things the LBS isn’t suited for. Gary is 100% correct about eBay too…it’s a swap meet. Even for “new” stuff. I take responsibility for my choices to go one way or the other.

8

A good bike shop supports racing and events. If our LBS would close so would our local TRI, Du, CRIT, MTB series and cyclecross races, Plus they put on local fun rides and have just offered the local fitness center a great deal on spinning bikes. They organize training rides and tie everything together. Most of the newbies go there to get fitted , maps , and to find out about the local stuff. If I need something quick they have it.
The people who don’t buy from them still take advantage of the services they offer. Even if they don’t know it.
I know people who would save $5 mailorder but they don’t really care about the sport, the grassroots programs, the state bike lobby, and many other things that the shop does. Becouse they know it will always be there becouse some people are willing to support the local shop. Now the local shop should be doing these things. If it’s not go to a local shop that is.

9

Service, accessories, conveince.

I shop online for a ton of my bike parts. There are a handful of online shops I buy from and I also buy a lot of stuff (usually new) from EBay. As a matter of fact, EBay is the only place where I’ll buy pedals.

I also visit many of the LBSs here in San Diego. I usually buy clothes, tubes, and consumables from the local shop cause usually when I need them, I need them now. I also use shops for service that I won’t do myself. (headsets, reaming, facing…) I too don’t really care much about the warantee angle although if I want one, I can just buy new online from a real shop and not EBay. This is still usually cheaper than the LBS. My point is that I think shops have made/are making a shift to making most of their cash of soft goods and service. When was the last time you made an emergency stop to EBay on the middle of a ride?

I like to support bike shops and do spend a fair amount of cash there, but I’m not a sucker either. If I find a good deal online I’ll take it.

10

The market is changing. Successful shops will assemble the ebay bikes and sell the accessories and be happy. Shops that try to lay a guilt trip on the customers will fail.

I think ebay will continue to grow. It’s already much harder to get “steals” there than it was just a couple of years ago. Preownedbikes.com will fail. Either because the prices suck or because it will be abandoned wihen American Bicycle Group goes on the auction block. JHK Investments has made it clear that they are just looking for some quick bucks out of ABG. Eventually they will realize there is no such thing as quick, easy money in the bike biz.

11

Consider the situation of people such as myself who live in rural areas. The closest bike shop to me is about forty minutes drive and that’s strictly a low end “family biking” type shop that carries very few road bikes and nothing tri orientated. The closest high end roadie/tri shop is a two and a half hour drive away.

I use ebay extensivey and became my own bike mechanic, fitter, etc. mostly out of necessity because of my chosing to live in the boonies.

12

I’m not a bike shop owner/employee, but here’s how I handle it. I use two shops – one is 95 miles from me, the other is 110. The closer shop has no problems with assembling/servicing bikes bought on ebay or other mail order houses. People regularly use his shop to assemble bikes they bought on-line. I have done this once, and I have also bought a bike from him. I also buy odds and ends from him as well. For example, I upgraded the drivetrain on a bike I used to own. I bought all the components from Nashbar, with the exception of a cassette. I could have bought the cassette for $35 or so online. I paid $65 for it from him, just to give him some extra business out of the deal. He understands that I (and our local club members) don’t have access to a shop, and he’s just glad that we use him as much as we do. He’s cool about it, and we support his shop often. But we do buy online equally as often.

The other shop, now that is a different story. He likes for us to do business solely with him, no matter how difficult it is for us to make the trip to his shop. I was asking about having some upgrades done on an old bike recently. I was going to buy the components and bring them in for him to do the work. He started questioning me about where I was buying the components, shipping, etc. He apparently isn’t as understanding as the other shop owner.

It takes half a day of my time and $30 in gas money for me to get to either of these shops. I try to support them and let them know that I appreciate them often. But I have to save money (and time) whenever possible. The guy 95 miles away is cool with this arrangement; the other guy isn’t. If I lived in a community with a good LBS, I’d use it almost exclusively. But I don’t, so I do what I have to do.

And I seldom buy from ebay – only once in three years, in fact. Buying sight unseen with no warranty, no knowledge of the product’s prior history, etc., makes me nervous. I look at ebay often, but seldom buy. I’m a little leery of ebay.

RP

13

Why not offer a service where you will sit down with the buyers at your computer and shop along with them? Tell them that you’ll pick out all the cool stuff together. Send them home to keep the bidding going and have it all drop shipped right to the shop. Total price for supplying the expertise on the selection side and the assembly post delivery. Even run this out of a back alley with no frontage, etc. that can get expensive, if you don’t already own a shop. Go to their office with your laptop even. Or have them give you a budget and you do all the work. Possibly mark up what is bought by a small percentage equal to the normally small bike markup from a conventional shop.

The expertise of knowing that all the various parts will go together is worth the money by itself - it’s not hard to waste $50 on that fork that did not work, is it? And it would be a hoot to put bikes together ala carte along with your customer getting exactly what they want. Let all the accessory and wrenching sales come later.

Steve

14

I buy some things from my LBS, and some things from the internet. My rationale - my LBS gives me very good service and is knowledgeable (at least one guy is) - and I don’t want it to go away. I buy some things from the internet, because the prices are good.

My general “rule” is to buy the first one from the LBS, and buy replacements, etc. from the internet (or whoever is cheaper). I do not believe in trying things on, test riding, etc. at the LBS and then buying from the internet. Reason - ethical (albeit my ethics) and the more important reason is that if I did that, then eventually all the LBS’s would disappear. I am also lucky enough to have a great LBS. Yes, I bought my P3 there last year. But whenever I have a problem, they fix it or adjust if for free. Heck, he even fixes things that aren’t broken. Example - I did a less than beautiful job with my HR and cadence monitor - he fixed it up and made it look great. He didn’t even mention it, nor charge me. I’m fanatic about mechanical adjustments, and my shop guy encourages me to bring my bike in before every race. He adjusts it free of charge. I feel guilty, but he says “that’s what I’m here for.”

Also, my LBS has a big triathlon focus, and is located in an affluent area of NJ. Lots of “regulars” with lots of disposable income that like the catering and help. I like my shop, they take care of me, and I don’t mind supporting them. Not for everything, but for some things. For me, it’s worth it.

15

my LBS also supports my tri club, has Sunday rides, discounts for us, organizes races… I appreciate all those things, so I’ve started to buy more from them than online. Mostly what I buy online is stuff they wouldn’t have- secondhand (which is to say cheap) race wheels, etc. I do all my own wrenching so they don’t make any money on that from me, but quite a few of the guys/gals in the club use them for tuneups etc. There’s still a place for reliable, honest, knowledgeable local service.

16

For what it’s worth, here’s my two cents worth.

I shop at my lbs unless they just absolutely can’t get the product I’m looking for. Here are only a couple of reasons why. (In no particular order)

  1. The value of my time!!! This is a big reason. I have a hundred things I would rather do than figure out who has the lowest price on a cassette this week. I would rather be training/reading a tri book/spending time with my family/sleeping/eating/ goofing off on this site etc. Not only that, but I figure there is also a monetary value on my time. Since there are only 24 hours in a day, I can’t get any of them back. So if I save $50 on a component, but it took me 3 hours to research it/find the best price/order it etc, since the value of my time is factored in there, I really don’t think I come out ahead. Hell, I think a lot of people could go to Mcdonald’s and work for minimum wage instead of looking for “deals” on the internet and use that money to buy any bike on the planet.

  2. I have never had a problem with getting things warrantied at my lbs. Last year I brought in a bike I had (didn’t even get it from them) that after less than a year had a broken Dura Ace shifter. Since I was known by the guys at the shop, they just took the bike and said that they would call me in a few days. I really didn’t know what they were going to do. When they called me in a few days it was to tell me that they had warrantied a brand new Dura Ace shifter and had installed it and everything for me. Didn’t cost me a cent. (Thanks Bike Source!!!)

  3. A couple of years ago I bought I bike on E-bay. When I got it it I noticed it wasn’t the year they had listed. (Of course it was older than what they said…couldn’t have made a mistake and given me a newer model) After a few months of unsucessfully trying to get it to fit, I called the manufacturer to confirm the size, and they said it wasn’t the size I thought it was.

  4. I want to see local retail stores be successful. I know it sucks to sometimes have to pay a little higher price for a product, but next time you hit a pot hole and bitch about breaking a spoke, don’t forget that sales tax also helps pave the roads. And next time you want to find someone to do a century with, call up Nashbar and see if they will meet you for a ride. Or try calling E-bay when you need someone to put the speedplay cleats on your shoes and don’t know how.

  5. Maybe other people don’t do this, but whenever I used to buy things online, I would end up buying so much crap just because I didn’t want to pay for shipping on one item. So that $50 cassette just cost me $150 worth of other crap I really didn’t need.

I could go on and on. And don’t get me wrong, I like a deal as much as anyone. I also realize that all these factors don’t apply to everyone. Just trying to bring up some things that some people don’t think of.

Jeff

17

However you spell it, when you buy a new bike you’re gonna pay for assembly. Either the LBS includes assembly in their profit margin on the sale of the bike, or you buy the components elsewhere and pay them a flat fee or hourly rate to do it. They are likely making MORE on the flat-rate/hourly assembly than they make in profit on the original sale of an ‘assembled’ bike, so unless they are too busy it’s a no-brainer.

There is definitely something good to be said regarding some eBay deals, if it’s something you can’t find locally or is vintage/discontinued. There is also something good to be said about accumulating parts from various online vendors, when there is no tax and decent shipping fees, for higher dollar items. You may also not have a choice of components from a particular manufacturer, so are forced to buy a frame and spec the components yourself. I’d be surprised if you found a bike shop who refused to assemble it for you in that case.

Here’s a case for supporting your local shop: I became friendly with the LBS guy who supports local races. I had only bought clothing from him sporadically in the past, but he remembered my name. Sometimes I would just stop in and get some Gels and talk to him about Lance, USPS, Italian racing-scene, etc. I was seeing good prices for new pedals on eBay, but I took a chance and emailed the LBS to ask if he could get them. He says ‘yes’ and offers me an unsolicited price lower than retail and the same as eBay. I didn’t hassle him on price, and he appreciated my business and told me so, and even though I never mentioned eBay, he told me he appreciated my buying from him rather than online. Now I think of him first before I look elsewhere.

Another case: Another LBS charged me a fair amount to assemble my new accumulated components on my eBay-purchased frame, and fit me in with ‘regular’ customers in a timely and efficient way, and did a great job. They even complemented me on my choice of components, even though they sell a few of the same items that I had already bought. They are a busy shop and didn’t need my business, but they would have been foolish to refuse my dollars in exchange for their mechanical expertise.

So I guess I have partially agreed with you AND also proven you wrong at the same time.

BTW If your wife’s new bike fails in a day/week/month, please remember that you said “I could care less about a warranty”, and don’t rant here about an eBay ‘scam’.

18

For what it’s worth, here’s what I’ve saved on eBay in the past 2 years relative to my 10+ local bike shops, none of which are willing to sell for anything less than the high end of the retail price range. Everything purchased on eBay was new, in-season, and in perfect working order. I’ve never had a single problem, and always saved money:

  1. Campy Record gruppo $600 less

  2. Campy Eurus wheels $300 less

  3. Tires, 6 sets of Pro-Race and VeloFlex @ half price $300 less

  4. Assos clothing, various $200 less

  5. Trainers, 1-up (from manufacturer!) and Kinetic $100 less

  6. Seats, 2 Fizik Aliante $150 less

  7. Pedals, 2 pair Speedplay $100 less

  8. Various other, including clothing, components, and supplies $200 less

That’s basically $2000, not to mention the time saved by avoiding driving to shops, looking for who carries the items I want. In the same time period, I’ve spent even more in those same shops for things that made more sense to buy right then or right there. But the point is that most of the time, eBay saves me so much money that I’d be a fool not to buy there. The sport is too expensive to always pay retail. And most importantly, the American economy is about competition. The guys selling on eBay are humans just like the bike shop guys, and if they’re willing to work harder or operate leaner to provide a better value, then we should both be the beneficiaries.

Having come from a small farming town where Wal-Mart wiped out 50% of the local retail businesses, I’m the first to praise sweeping changes in the retail industry. Every family in town now saves $000s per year on goods, all because of WM. The folks who lost their jobs fortunately live in the US, where it’s easy to find new ones that pay just as much. Every family is better off because the cost of buying life’s necessities plummeted thanks to WM. eBay is doing the exact same thing: ripping out inefficiencies in the economy, thereby making everyone better off in the long run.

19

Jeff, I couldn’t agree with you more on all of the points you listed. I have worked retail and I’m majoring in accounting, so I am pretty confident that when my LBS is charging me MSRP for an innertube, jersey or whole bike, I’m not getting “gouged.” My LBS earns my business and has friendly, knowledgeable staff and good service.

Brett

20

I think the bike shops need to take the fight to Ebay’s turf a little more. There are a ton of new bikes sold every year to people who dabble in triathlons then stop, or upgrade a pefectly servicable older bike. Anybody who has been doing this for a while is likely to have a garage full of stuff they don’t use anymore. A lot of this is what you find on Ebay, and it can be a heck of a good value. But you have little or no chance of getting such stuff at your local shop. I’d be happy to unload my old hed disk at the LBS rather than hassle with ebay, and I would also be happy to buy good used equipment. I would think the margins would be even better than new equipment. Maybe it is like the diamond market, if all the used stuff suddenly entered the market, the whole industry would collapse.