So, all things being equal, just how big of a difference will the following make for an age grouper that averages 21-22 on the bike from sprints to half irons?
Zipp 808s?
Aero Helmet?
To answer your quest about how big of a diff - I believe it is about a minute per hour
If you are worried about the dough don’t do it…
I work in km/hr so 21-22 equates to about 34-36km/hr.
My understanding is that a disc wheel starts becoming beneficial when going faster than say 35km/hr. This makes sense because as you start going faster the wind resistance builds up. Deep rim wheels like the 808’s are supposed to be very good aerodynamically also.
A guy in my local area who does both cycle racing and triathlon put out what I would say was an awesome ride in an ironman recently. He went flying past me about 20kms into the ride. After the race he told me a mate from the local cycle club loaned him the new 808’s. Averaging 35km/hr on a rolloing hill course was decent and he only had good things to say about the wheels.
Hope the story isn’t too long, but would say the wheels were ideal for the day and him.
You can look up the aero helmet thing and you will see they make a few seconds difference.
Get your bike up to 40km/hr for a 20km TT then get them. Thats what I did with regard to buying some aero gear anyways.
you will actually see greater time savings overall if you are slower rather tha faster as you spend more time on the course.
from what i understand the helmet is nearly or the same time savings (depends on helmet, position and wheels) as the wheels at a fraction of the cost.
I have come to believe that it makes very little difference. But it sure looks cool (well, the helmet doesn’t), and that’s why I still have Zipps.
If $ doesn’t matter, or if you are seconds from the podium, then everything is fair game. No reason not to go a little faster.
But I’d guess that 4 strong 100 mile rides over the season will make more difference than any wheels/tires/helmet, etc. Way more.
Thats not how I understand it at all. Do the trial yourself on a windless day! As you start going over 35km/hr the wind hitting you in face will begin to slow you down, or what do you suggest is the cause. More wind hitting you requires more aerodynamics to cut through it.
Now you have opened it up for further debate; am interested in your information source???
It’s an exponential equation and therefore the same aerodynamic benefits between two riders will have a greater impact on the overall speed of the slower rider.
There was a thread (titled "Race Wheels Advantage) similar to this a week or two ago and I wrote this (which I believe is a better explaination)…
The slower athlete will save MORE time over the same distance vs. himself on box section wheels. He is out on the course longer, and therefore has more room for savings.
The athlete who is already traveling 25mph on box section wheels has less room for improvement because as you go faster the minimal amount of wattage gained from the more aerodynamic wheels is not enough to overcome the exponential amount of power that it takes to increase his velocity.
You yourself have already stated that 300w is a large power output for an AG athlete. Would you be excited if you were able to instantly bump up your power 15 watts? That’s the difference we are looking at with these wheels @ 30mph. At lower speeds the wheel is meeting less wind resistance but still saving 15 or so watts. This has a greater impact on the amount of speed the slower moving athlete will gain from the increased 15 watts.
In other words, an extra 15 watts of power output will have a greater impact on an the speed of a rider who is moving slower than it will on the speed of a rider who is moving faster. Therefore the faster you are, the less reason you would have to spend on expensive wheels. EXCEPT for the fact that a big portion of endurance sports is pacing and economy, not top speed. Having better aerodynamics will allow you to carry the same speed you can now with less effort. Saving you energy for the run.
If I am wrong, I ask the experts to please chime in and correct me.
You’re completely wrong.
I’m not going to argue and can see where you are coming from.
Don’t forget to refer back to the original question though!!!
But to reply to your post…
Also I agree with another reply to this post and suggest it is better advice for someone slower. That was to do 5 or so rides of 100 miles during the year preceding the ironman.
That would be time and money better spent to go faster.
If you are wealthy enough to shell out $3000 for a new set of 808’s then you can take extra time of work. That is the my preference, but everyone to their own.
Also I agree with another reply to this post and suggest it is better advice for someone slower. That was to do 5 or so rides of 100 miles during the year preceding the ironman.
That would be time and money better spent to go faster.
If you are wealthy enough to shell out $3000 for a new set of 808’s then you can take extra time of work. That is the my preference, but everyone to their own.
Agreed on the long rides, but for someone such as myself who has done the long rides and is doing as much training as the body can handle, what then? Race wheels and an aero helmet.
I’m not sure how much 808’s are down under, but in the U.S. they are closer to $2200, you’re overestimating the price by almost $1k.
Granted, I’m in a fortunate situation that allows me to train 20hrs a week, afford 808’s and I can take time off work if I really need more. The thing is, I don’t think that I’m all that unique among triathletes. This is a sport where a lot of people have disposable income to allow them to train and afford equipment. Not everyone, but a lot of us are that way.
Things are more expensive in expensive in this part of the world. They have been getting more affordable by the week over the past 6 months or so though.
Below is a set of good wheels at the best price you can get on the open market here(16 March):
[ ZIPP ZEDTECH Z 99 Ceramic Carbon Disc Wheel Set *As New**
900 Disc & 808 Front wheel.Tubular Set. This is by far the fastest combination.
Dimpled Hubs.
Used for 1 races only done less than 100 miles Max.
In absolute immaculate condition.
These are the top or the range wheels, the best of the best.
The skewers are included.
Tyres are included.
They are Tubulars.
Shimano Hub compatable.
NB!!! Ceramic wheels are about $1500 extra on the wheels, compared to standard wheels, that look exactly the same. The difference is absolutely amazing and you do notice. The bearings are what makes the difference…
You cant afford not to take this advantage.
The RP is in excess of $6000
They are truely in supurb condition and the Mondo tyres are also included.
At this price they are incredable value.
If you want only one the price is $2950 Disc $1850 Front ]
Above is in NZD; sound reaonable???
The average household can’t save $10,000 a year with the wages and cost of living.
I think for the betterment of the sport of triathlon inclusive is preferable to exclusive.
Again it is just the direction I like so not trying to force my opinions on anyone. As such I think focusing on expensive wheels will put off new entrants to the sport.
How come this thread has gone so far off the original topic???
Here is the thing, I actually bought 808s last year, and I haven’t seen a difference. I was thinking that because this area has so many rolling hill courses, that may be why - but I did IM Cancun 70.3 last year (totally flat) and kept the same average there as I have here. I was fortunate enough to get a rolldown slot for Clearwater, and the same results - actually slightly slower than Cancun. So, for me, I’m just not seeing the difference yet in the 808s. I’m hearing and seeing hoopla regarding aero helmets, and I was just curious to see if everyones experiences with them has been positive.
no wheelset in the world is going to make you magically faster… Speed is going to come from A. Training B. Position C. More training D. Gear (E. and MORE training!)
There is absolutely no doubt that 808’s are fast… but on your current bike set up the wheel set is probably only a tiny fraction of a percent of total drag… so your time gains will reflect that. Look at it in terms of what is preventing you from going faster. Wheels are a piece of the puzzle, but there are other, larger pieces.
Have yourself professoinally fitted so that you are in the MOST aerodynamic position possible. Get yourself an aero helmet. Pay attention to details on your bike (do you have 20 Lbs. of food and water on your carbon bike? Do you have loose clothing and race numbers flapping about on your aero frame and wheels?) and then go Train, train, train and train some more.
Oh… and finally - The other posters were right. The longer you spend out on the course, the more time savings you’ll see from aero gains, but the less it will mean (in terms of $$$ spent to reward ratio).
I’ve started to race and do limited training with an aero helmet, AdvantageII. I can see a difference with the helmet. I’ve tested this many times on the same 3/4 mile hills and see speeds with the aero helmet slightly faster then the same hills with a regular helmet. The other factor is that with the aero helmet you’ll need to keep the tail down near your back, so you’ll consiously keep your head up, thus maximizing the aero helmet benefit. You need to “make” the aero helmet work for you by maintaining a good head position.
I have noticed a difference when I use my aero helmet. It’s maybe 1-2 minutes at best over 40k but there’s a difference.
It’s maybe 1-2 minutes at best over 40k but there’s a difference.
Um … that’s pretty huge!
.
Its my best guess. I’ve no basis behind that aside from riding two or three courses with and without it and looking at my times.
You’ll save about 45 seconds to 1 minutes per 40k with a 808 front.
You’ll save about 30-45 seconds/40k with an 808 rear.
You’ll save about 1:15-1:30/40k with both front and rear 808s.
And you’ll save about 30 seconds to 1:30 minutes per 40k with an aerohelmet.
*keep in mind though that if (for example) you save 1:20 from new wheels and you save 1:00 minute from an aero helmet, you will NOT save 2:20 from wheels + helmet…because with each incremental increase in speed (say, from new wheels) you will then have LESS time on the course to make up time with a new helmet.
For the same reason, “slower riders may appreciate greater time savings”
IF you’re concerned about the money issue, go for the aerohelmet first and consider racedaywheels.com for your big race. Or do what I’m doing: new LG Rocket Air coming in the mail as we speak ($150 retail), wheelcover (90% as aero as a disk, 10% the price) from wheelbuilder.com ($100), and renting an 808 FRONT for IM FL 70.3 ($70). Hope this helps.
“wheelcover…90% as aero as a disk”
That is not true. It is as aero as many disks, and more aero than some due to it’s lenticular shape.
Well…I have a wheelcover…so by all means I’d like to believe that. And I as well have heard that lenticular shaped “disks” are more aerodynamic, but is a wheelcover REALLY lenticular? I know people have called it ‘lenticular’, but I have also heard people refute that by saying it’s actually more cone-shaped (or two cones sandwitched together). So I guess me question is…do you know if those studies done on lenticular disks actually apply to a wheelcover?
As a side note, are you refering to a zipp deep-rimmed wheel with a wheelcover where the end result kinda looks like a Sub9? because I’ve heard that a Sub9 is ‘lenticular’…but my idea of lenticular is “shaped like a lens”…so I don’t know.
And if you claim that a wheelcover is “as aero as many disks, and more aero than some”, then why don’t these disk making companys just make a carbon lenticular disk?..unless you know something they don’t.
But once again, I’d love for you to prove me wrong because I’d love it if I paid 1/10th the price of a disk for MORE aerodynamics…so more power to you.