This discussion reminds me of when Lionel overreacted to his second place finish in 2017, went semi vegan and basically starved himself in an effort to cut weight for Kona.
Check how emaciated he looked in video 1 below versus his body in 2021 where he is an absolute unit (video 2)
Think we all remember how that turned out (took more time to turnaround than just realizing not to super concentrate gatorade endurance)
Fortunately based on Sam’s videos and social media I don’t think he’s concerned one bit about his weight. Also thinks he has decent surface area to mass, which he does, which isn’t as nice as being 140 lb on the run, but does help
I know there are a zillion examples of when it did not work and we also know that it is a slippery slope of the physics working until you get to that tipping point when it all unravels.
But it’s almost like people are now scared to talk about how to get to that personal equilibrium which is different for anyone. It is a valid discussion to have. At the end of the day we are talking about racing in Kona or racing marathons neither of which is healthy to start off with. So it’s degrees of doing unhealthy things since doing an Ironman inherently is pushing the limits on health.
Everyone can pick their poison. It is just disingenuous talking about Ironman racing and saying we should not discuss body composition. It is inherently a part of racing.
I don’t know Sam nor his body composition (other than people say he is a big guy) and if you guys say it is already optimized at the equilibrium for speed and health then it is.
ALSO good point about Sam’s surface area to volume ratio. That is what Rift Valley marathoners are maximized for. Jan also benefits from that
Cheers Dev. I think it’s a fair discussion to have. I do count myself in the camp of thinking Sam doesn’t really have anything to lose aside from muscle, though
Kona 2021 shaping up to be an all-time field, especially if all three Norwegians race. Should be fun!
Cam Wurf and Sebi just got a new engine for the Kawaihai Bullet train to chase down Jan.
If Wurf slows down to stay with him.
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I am looking forward to seeing Cam racing some tri’s towards the back end of summer…It will be very interesting.
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Cam Wurf and Sebi just got a new engine for the Kawaihai Bullet train to chase down Jan.
If Wurf slows down to stay with him.
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I am looking forward to seeing Cam racing some tri’s towards the back end of summer…It will be very interesting.
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Racing Andorra 70.3 this weekend.
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That explains the comment from one of his mates the other day,which was something like, “Road or TT on Sunday?”
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This discussion reminds me of when Lionel overreacted to his second place finish in 2017, went semi vegan and basically starved himself in an effort to cut weight for Kona.
Check how emaciated he looked in video 1 below versus his body in 2021 where he is an absolute unit (video 2)
Think we all remember how that turned out (took more time to turnaround than just realizing not to super concentrate gatorade endurance)
Fortunately based on Sam’s videos and social media I don’t think he’s concerned one bit about his weight. Also thinks he has decent surface area to mass, which he does, which isn’t as nice as being 140 lb on the run, but does help
When I saw Lionel pre-Kona in 2018, my first thought was “he’s too lean.” Mark Allen used to gain five lbs. over his normal season weight for Kona to have more durability (he tried getting super-lean for Kona and it didn’t work).
Cam Wurf and Sebi just got a new engine for the Kawaihai Bullet train to chase down Jan.
If Wurf slows down to stay with him.
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I am looking forward to seeing Cam racing some tri’s towards the back end of summer…It will be very interesting.
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Racing Andorra 70.3 this weekend.
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That explains the comment from one of his mates the other day,which was something like, “Road or TT on Sunday?”
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If he is racing Andorra 70.3 why did he give his fast wheels to Matthew Van Der Poel for today’'s TdF ITT?
For every watt of mechanical work 4 watts of heat is generated.
If Lange is running at 16kph, the person 10% heavier will move very coarsly at 14.4 kph for the same amount of mechanical work (watts to the ground). If both people are going the same speed, then the guy who is 10% heavier will generate 40% more heat.
Thanks. Uh… the general argument makes sense to me, but not how absolute and relative numbers work? Lange will need to produce 1200 watts of energy (mechanical+heat) to run at 300 watts output (300 watts of mechanical, 900 watts of heat). Fat guy (LOL) will need a 330 watt mechanical output to achieve the same speed, requiring 4x330=1320 watts in total, or still 10% more than Lange’s 1200, including 1320-330=990 watts of heat (10% more than Lange’s 900).
For every watt of mechanical work 4 watts of heat is generated.
If Lange is running at 16kph, the person 10% heavier will move very coarsly at 14.4 kph for the same amount of mechanical work (watts to the ground). If both people are going the same speed, then the guy who is 10% heavier will generate 40% more heat.
Thanks. Uh… the general argument makes sense to me, but not how absolute and relative numbers work? Lange will need to produce 1200 watts of energy (mechanical+heat) to run at 300 watts output (300 watts of mechanical, 900 watts of heat). Fat guy (LOL) will need a 330 watt mechanical output to achieve the same speed, requiring 4x330=1320 watts in total, or still 10% more than Lange’s 1200, including 1320-330=990 watts of heat (10% more than Lange’s 900).
Yes, Dev needs to show his math to get to someone 10% heavier generating 40% more heat. I don’t get that at all.
Sam’s 8:07 with a 54 min swim, 4:18 bike and 2:51 run were very similar to what Normann Stadler used to win Kona 2006. Sam outran Stadler by 4 minutes, but the swim and bike were identical (it just occurred to me that the race splits were very alike).
But in any case everyone was beating on Sam at Tulsa. It just goes to show that some days you’re on, other days not so much. Congrats to Sam. All the threads are about Lionel’s implosion, but what a performance by Sam Long bouncing back so quickly from Tulsa.
Not a follower of Sam Long, but will be now - that’s a super performance in that heat. A very balanced day, looking at the splits.
Kona will be interesting. A lot of athletes seem to post great IM results during the season and then disappear in Kona. I have a feeling he won’t be one of these - he races too maturely, in a very controlled manner. Was the same in Daytona. Kudos to him.
PS That Stadler performance was the first I had ever seen of triathlon. The memories. On the Yellow and Blue Kuota.
I screwed up the explanation. 120extra watts blows up in heat for the big guy. Meanwhile Lange is putting out 300W to the road. 120W is 40% of Lange’s 300W. That’s the big guy “heat overhead” of going at the same pace. There is the mechanical overhead (30 extra watts). Big guy has a bigger heart and lungs and legs, but but the heat part is painful. As others have pointed out if it is a big guy with large surface to volume ratio then that is a bit of a help.
I screwed up the explanation. 120extra watts blows up in heat for the big guy. Meanwhile Lange is putting out 300W to the road. 120W is 40% of Lange’s 300W. That’s the big guy “heat overhead” of going at the same pace. There is the mechanical overhead (30 extra watts). Big guy has a bigger heart and lungs and legs, but but the heat part is painful. As others have pointed out if it is a big guy with large surface to volume ratio then that is a bit of a help.
Sam’s NP was 299w
So, you’ve written that you don’t know how lean Sam looks or if he even needs to lose weight, and you clearly are not educated in exercise physiology …. But you keep beating this drum? I made the comment above that less sleep equals more time to work; that’s about as simplistic as your thinking. While others have pointed out examples such as Mark Allen putting on weight for Kona after doing poorly with less weight. You’ve hi-jacked your own (good) thread with pseudoscience
Calm down man. At this point you’re just fighting to make it personal (you can’t hold back attacking the other guy instead of sticking to the discussion)
Perhaps we just stick to each watt of mechanical work generating 4W +/- of heat. From there we can slice and dice it and each person can optimize what their balance point is. I was not talking about exercise physiology or weight optimization and health just simple Newtonian mechanics impact and relative effiiciency of the human machine only (output energy vs input energy). You’re the one wanting a fight. I already said that if you said that Sam is optimized for him that’s fine. Macca got optimized for him, Stadler got optimized for him, Faris for him, Crowie for him, Jan for him, Sebi for him. Peter Reid did get optimized for him at times, but he will be the first to say he blew it often enough and developed a bad relationship with nutrition.
For sure there are plenty of examples of people who go too light and gain back a bit to get to their personal balance point. That list will be endless too. Its really about each person’s balance point. If Sam is there then he’s there.
I have no idea if he has anything to lose between here and Kona. If you say he has nothiing to lose, then that’s fine. But the fastest way to be fast is Kona is be lighter (and yes, it may be unhealthy). Its just how the physics of that course plays out.
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What would Macca do?
Racing Weight: Advice from History’s Heaviest Ironman Champion – Triathlete
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I think that Macca article pretty well summarized finding your personal balance point of light and fast enough not light and weak. Light enough and still strong. It seem that Miles is taking it as all one way vs the other way.
Calm down man. At this point you’re just fighting to make it personal (you can’t hold back attacking the other guy instead of sticking to the discussion)
Actually, nothing I wrote was not sticking to the discussion. I love the ‘calm down man’ arguments, as if you’re taking some higher road… as you then go on to write another paragraph of pseudoscience gibberish with the explicit claim that a pro needs to lose weight, but you keep wrapping it up by saying he probably doesn’t need to lose weight. So why keep beating this drum if you have zero knowledge of if this specific pro needs to lose weight, on a thread about said-pro? I’m calling it out as irresponsible. You keep writing junk, I’ll keep calling it out as irresponsible, because this is a public forum where people take ideas to heart and if you think Sam needs to lose weight when he doesn’t, what will others think? your junk-science needs to be called out. simple as that. Full respect to you (for the most part), but a poor argument doesn’t get a pass just because you seem to be a good guy most of the time.
Chris McCormack is 6-0. He is two inches taller than Patrick Lange.
Sam Long is 6-4. And he’s not even 40lbs more than Lange. He also has a additional surface area to cool off his body. As I said, he could stand to actually pump his race weight up 5lbs rather than your encouragement to lose 5lbs.
Please please, please for the nth time, I just asked if he has 5 lbs to lose, I did not say he has to lose them. Agreed he has surface area.
For the nth time, is it the most appropriate question to even be asking? I’m saying, “no”. For this particular athlete, it’s not appropriate. Others are saying the same thing, so maybe just stop, because ‘what if’ your quasi-science is ingested by a pro and they pull a ‘Sanders 2017-18’? It’s irresponsible. Use your voice responsibly, please.
Now, there are plenty of people that, yes, could lose weight, but few of them are pro men triathletes. kind of pink: I just don’t call them out on a public message board. I politely pull along side them mid ride and let them know, face to face, like a gentleman, responsibly.