I have seen several posts related to exposing Carbon to high heat if you use powder coat paint. In New Orleans my car gets well over 200 degrees during the day. What is the magic # for damage to the Carbon / Resin if this is an issue. Should the Manufacture have a maximum heat exposure warning? Anyone know where to get this data for cured Carbon/Resin?
Carbon is used for F1 brakes, airframes and space going vehicles.
Your car’s interior is no match for carbon.
You’ll be fine.
I suggest that you get the new Mercedes S600 with the optional AC for your car while it is parked…
Is all carbon created equal? I have a hard time believing that F1 brakes use the same bonding resin as bike frames. I have seen other threads about removing decals with a heatgun and damaging the resin.
Any idiot who takes a heat gun to his carbon frame to remove the decals does not deserve such a fine piece of machinery …
mp
Is all carbon created equal? I have a hard time believing that F1 brakes use the same bonding resin as bike frames. I have seen other threads about removing decals with a heatgun and damaging the resin.
No, there are many resins and each could have different temp points that may cause bonding issues. Perhaps the “idiots” with the heat guns saw the melting clear coat or decal glue or maybe they really did melt the carbon resin (I really doubt it).
Carbon is extrememly durable and I’d hazard a guess that once set, the resins are not prone to heat damage.
Here is a link to MQC. They manufacture many carbon parts and provide a glossary and FAQ regarding carbon. If you still think that carbon is at danger in your car…Don’t leave it in the car.
There are bunches and bunches of different resins. You can spec your resin for numerous characteristics, including melting point, electric conductivity, strength, flexibility… the list is long.
I don’t know of any resins that 200 degrees would hurt, but I have started fires with a heatgun while working on my house. You could burn some resins at woodburning temps. At least as important, if you are not careful, you could get your wheel hot enough to soften the resin or affect whatever is underneath the carbon. It would take a very heavy hand with a heat gin, but you could do it if you were not judicious with the heat.
As far as F1 brakes, there is not any resin in them, that is what makes them **so**cool and so expensive. They are machined from a solid hunk of carbon that is grown like a crystal (or maybe mold) in a hot oven, I think over a period of months. Gas is pumped into a hot oven (hot enough to carbonize the gas) and the carbonized gas very gradually grows into a big enough piece of solid carbon big enough to do something with. I don’t know all the details of the process, I assume the oven is pressurized, and there must be something like a base piece of carbon that has an electric charge in it to attract the carbonized gas.
andy
tritotonto,
It is killing me, so I have to break it to you:
“Was mich nicht umbringt, macht mich staerker”
Thank’s
.
Dammit. . .I was expecting to see some stuff like this when I checked this thread:
Carbon is used for F1 brakes, airframes and space going vehicles.
Your car’s interior is no match for carbon.
You’ll be fine.
Actually, regarding F1 brakes (and Space Shuttle leading edges and nose cones), they don’t use a resin matrix for those. What they do use is a material called “reinforced carbon-carbon”, which consists of carbon fibers running through a pure carbon matrix. This is done by repeatedly impregnating the carbon fibers with a phenolic resin, then “baking off”, or pyrolizing, the resin, driving off all of the oxygen, hydrogen, and other atoms, leaving only pure carbon in the matrix. The outer surface is then reacted at high temperature to create a silicon carbide layer that provides oxidation protection (carbon at 2600 degrees F wants to combine with oxygen in a big way). This leaves a material that is highly resistant to high temperatures (>2500 degrees F), although it is somewhat brittle. This is the material that broke on the Columbia Space Shuttle, when it was impacted by the foam chunk at 500MPH striking speed, leading to the eventual loss of the Shuttle.
More than you probably ever wanted to know about making Reinforced Carbon Carbon:
http://science.ksc.nasa.gov/shuttle/technology/sts-newsref/sts_sys.html#sts-rcc
For intermediate temperatures, usually due to aerodynamic heating, aerospace manufacturers will use either phenolic or Bismaleimide resins.
Most bicycle manufacturers use epoxy resins, which probably are fine for the temps seen inside a car.
EDIT - Regarding ANDYT’s post, I remember reading something about Carbone Industrie, the major supplier to Formula 1 for brake disks, using an approach somewhat like you mentioned, where they infuse stacks of carbon fabric with a gas that deposits carbon at high temperature. Like you said, this takes place over several months. I’ll need to go through my old issues of Racecar Engineering to find the article.
thanks - I thought my german might be a bit off
mp
.
I am an experienced fabricator of carbon fibre, and here is how it goes:
-
it is ALWAYS recommended that carbon wings (for airplanes) be painted, as the black colour of the material can hold in heat, making a danger of delamination.
-
many bonded items should not be baked when painted because of the danger of delamination (according to the manufacturer).
-
on the instructions for the Specialized UL wheel (a.k.a. Hed 3), it says to NEVER leave the wheel in the car on a hot day.
Not all carbon is created equal, and I would be hesitant to leave a carbon wheel or frame in a car. I can’t tell you where to find this data, and I would check with the manufacturer of the product in question.
I am an experienced fabricator of carbon fibre,
???Tell us just how long have you been working with this stuff???I would be real careful telling people i was experienced with something unless i really was.Again i really hate to call you on this but you seem to want to give people the idea you a shop doing a lot of work in this area.
I found this in the Trek Manual for OCLV frames pg 86.
" Excessive heat , such as that used in powder coating , or any open flame, may damage the adhesive which joins the frame parts. Do not exceed 180 F. (82 C.) "
My car gets well over 180 on a regular basis. Good thing I don’t own a Trek.
http://www.trekbikes.com/bikes/2004/pdf/04_bike_owners_manual_en.pdf
Okay, tired of the pissing match already, randall.
I am experinced. No, I have not manufactured anything on a full scale, nor am I claiming to be that good at it, though I have one pair of handlebars with over 5,000 miles on them; they seem to be able to take many, many more.
I draw my experience from repairing car bodies with fibreglass when I was a kid.The repairs were not brilliant, but they made the grade. I have been repairing carbon fibre for about four years and fabricated it for over a year. My first repair was a cracked frame, which has over 10,000 miles and counting. The tubes around the repair will fail (as well as the lugs) long before the (butt-ugly) repair. I have repaired over fifty flite evolution saddles (as they use waaaaaay too much Kevlar in them), permanently mounted the seat post clamp on three Corima posts, and repaired a few cracks in some disc wheels. I have sucessfully repaired the sole of a Lake shoe (which uses the Shimano sole). I have done one dash kit for a '90 Honda CRX, as well as made a cosmetic exhaust pipe. I have a water bottle holder that I have made that will offer many of the advantages of the heavier holders at half of their weight.
I have taken my lumps in this area, and I am now just getting comfortable enough to offer the fruits of my labour on a very limited basis.
Am I a welder? No. Am I an experienced frame builder? Not yet. I am not going to say that I posess the experience of Steve Hed, Andy Ording, or Frank Rehnelt. But I do have experience in this area, and I will learn more each fabrication that I do, and will continue to learn this craft as long as I do this.
I refuse to say that I am misrepresenting myself, as I implicitly say that I am not an expert, just experienced.
several points.
it is not all that difficult to be a "fabricator’ in CF. the stuff works like fibreglass, and is widely available. my brother used to make his own things like bunnyman all the time. mirrors for his ducati, muffler end cans. hoods and custom flared fenders for british sports cars for SCCA racing, etc. he did it in a garage, just like the b-man. don’t be mystified by the hype and voodoo that lots of people would like you to believe. it is simply not all that advanced a technology, at its root. experience counts - if b-man sez based on his experience he wouldn’t be leaving the shit in an oven like car - i would suggest believing him.
might have to check snopes, but there used to be considerable urbam lore about treks becoming unbonded in hot cars in the sun, back in the day. maybe this is why trek makes such a recommendation today?
I spoke to Craig Calfee ( http://calfeedesign.com ) about this issue and he assured me that this is not generally an issue, at least for his frames. Calfee frames are post cured at over 200 degrees.
I would also like to let everyone know how nice the guys at Calfee are on the phone. Imagine my amazement when I called and asked for Craig and he actually picked up the phone. Not only does he build buitiful frames but he makes his expertise accessable to the public. This is my kind of Company.
Craig also had a very simple solution to the problem. Crack your windows!
No, it isn’t difficult to be a fabricator. It is difficult to do things that have real structural value. All one has to do is go to their local aircraft supply store or on the internet and they can learn how to do this. Just lots of practise, broken objects, and a bit of crying is all that’s required. Layups are actually simple, and most people make it a LOT harder than it really has to be. But following directions is KEY. I have never claimed to be a genius, and I am still in the process of learning, as I am going to a class for airframe fabrication at the local college for aircraft maintenance.
My frame that I will start as soon as I am home will be very overbuilt, and I could probably take out over 25% of the material that I plan on using- but better safe and stiff than light. This will be what I learn from doing.
I will qualify what I have to say about the heat issues: it is usally the bonding agent for the metal joints that is in question, not the actual cured carbonfibre reinforced plastic itself. The stuff that I use to glue metal to fibre would take a blow torch to remove, but I still would not chance it.
And to the last solution Calfee suggested: I feel so stupid for not even thinking of it myself.
Please help me. I have a 5200 and a P3 with HED 3 wheels. I carry them in the car. I many times travel long distances. I stop to eat, sight see, watch later races etc. Do I need to take my 5200 or/and my HED 3 wheels out of the car and carry them around with me? Also sometimes I am parked in the sun . What if my bike/wheels are mounted outside couldn’t the sun get hotter than this? ??? I am most interested in what most do when leaving bike/wheels in the car.
Did you do the Rolla Du sat???
I am most interested in what most do when leaving bike/wheels in the car.
Calfee’s suggestion works pretty good. Crack the windows. Also buy a front and rear window shade and use them.
I have a client in Las Vegas that has heat issues during July & August. The ambient air temp is above 110 when we see car interior temps around the 180 F mark. That temp will go down 20 degrees by simply cracking the windows and another 15-20 by using window screens.
Unless one has actually data logged the temps, rate of temp rise and time at temp, some might be overstating the real values. We saw 180 only a few times in unscreened trucks without window shades. Use the shades and crack the windows a bit and you should be able to easily keep the temps well below 180 F.