Just as an informal poll - how many here were homeschooled?
And how many of those are evangelical Christians?
There’s an article in this week’s New Yorker about Patrick Henry College, which apparently is a college specializing in the homeschooled, of which something like 2/3 are evangelicals. The strange thing is that the vast majority of the students, like nearly all of them, are majoring in government, and all hope to be aides or political officials - obviously Republicans.
I don’t have a problem with homeschooling in general, but I do find it a little discomfiting that people who grow up in rather narrow social circumstances, who are essentially indoctrinated in a single viewpoint (in a vaguely cultish fashion, if you read the article), have the goal of leading others and essentially dictating terms to a secular population.
Read it for yourself (warning - it’s a fairly balanced article, but like all New Yorker articles, rather lengthy)-
I think homeschooling is a growing phenomenon not just with evangelicals. I am an admisisions officer at the United States Military Academy (West Point) and we see a growing number of applicants who are home schooled. In talking with the kids and their parents the reasons vary. Most parents feel they can provide a clearly superior education than one they would receive in a government school. You don’t have to be a rocket scientist to observe the moral and academic decline in our school system. This has nothing to do with prayer in school (another thread) but just plain values in general. I underatnd where some might feel the mixing of religion and poitics is not a good thing. What I do not understand is what exactly about the moral values these kids have is objectionable?
I don’t have any problems with their moral values. But as you pointed out, the mixing of religion and politics can be combustible, especially when you mix in the sort of sanctimony which seems prevalent in the evangelical community with a secular environment which caters to people of a variety of backgrounds and viewpoints. The one homeschooled guy I knew was extremely bright, but a bit socially retarded - he wasn’t an evangelical; in fact he was atheist, but his parents were both college professors.
Another way of putting it is this - if you read the article, the one thing that jumps out is that these kids have very structured views, much more structured than one would expect of their age, and quite likely held for quite some time. It’s antithetical in some ways to the pursuit of knowledge - the amassing of facts to draw a conclusion. In this case, its the conclusion that comes first, and the facts fit the case.
People I guess have a right to as narrow or broad a viewpoint as they wish - I just think it starts to get a little worrisome when an entire group weaned on a very narrow viewpoint then sets their sights on dictating terms to the vast majority through the amassing of legislative power.
Moreover, the school, although small, strikes me as a little strange - nobody majors in econ, or biology, or physics, or anything other than government. It’s like they’re producing bright, but unquestioning footsoldiers for the extreme right wing.
To further your comment I’m confused as to why those against this phenomenon feel threatened by the trend. Why do they have the need to badmouth, question or feel vulnerable by the direction that others take their own personal lives?
So they homeschool their kids and send them to Christian colleges. So they raise them in the way they want them raised. What is objectionable about this behavior?
Again, why do you feel threatened by this? We live in a democracy. If they present the platform by which they are raised in a democracy it is up to the voters to decide on whether they want to support or deny that platform.
“So they homeschool their kids and send them to Christian colleges. So they raise them in the way they want them raised. What is objectionable about this behavior?”
In today’s day and age where some are “home schooled” then strapped to a bomb and told to blow up a school…I believe many should look at this type of trend as a threat.
It certainly isn’t the fact that home schooling is a threat or that moral values are a threat. What is a threat is the fact that the possibility exists, in fact is likely, that these “youngsters” are being raised with the sole purpose of arresting power and imposing their values.
Is it wrong for them to attempt to do so? No not at all? Shoudl one be more on guard than simply at the polling place in order to prevent it from happening? Most definately.
“Why do you somehow try to draw parrallels between the two?”
I don’t have try and draw parrallels, it’s happening already around the world.
Do I truely believe that these “home schoolers” are going to strap on TNT and blow up teh capital, no that’s not the way we do things here. What I do beleive is that just like any “faction” these parents hold beliefs that they are hell bent on “spreading”. In America we do that by arresting power in the political system. This can be done in any number of ways. And despite what many believe a good deal of this “power” is yielded outside the ballot box.
If you think I’m simply against home schooling or the “Christian Right” you are mistaken. My comments would be the same if the discussion a was concerning a group of “Tree hugging anarchist” home schoolers.
There is nothing illegal about homeschooling, being involved in the political process, morals or trying to spread those moral values. However there is also nothing wrong with countering those attempts or making people aware that they are happening.
Allow me to post another question. What values, morals or beliefs do these kids and “future politicians” possess that need countering?
You appear to think that they are out to convert or somehow take over the United States with their beliefs and agenda. What agenda? What specifically needs countering?
The more liberal side of our political system advocates being open and tolerant of all types of views…unless of course it doesn’t fit in with theirs…why doesn’t this particular home schooling and college fit that view?
"why doesn’t this particular home schooling and college fit that view? "
Certainly it does…if it is tolerant of others views. However often this is not the case.
Again my case is not against the morals or values, simply the attempt to impose those values on others.
There is nothing wrong with raising your children with morals that you deem to be appropriate. However raising those children with those morals and with teh expressed interest of “spreading” or worse yet imposing those morals is a different point all together. Similar to the difference between raising a priest vs a crusader.
“You appear to think that they are out to convert or somehow take over the United States with their beliefs and agenda. What agenda? What specifically needs countering?”
The problem with “countering”, as we often see, is that by the time the signs of the “conversion” or “radicalism” is visible quite often the problem is well entrenched. Also quite often you may not even know teh objective of the group until it is to late. You ask “what agenda?”, I answer I don’t know nor do I care. The point is simply that certain activities are signs of “radicalism”. Isolation, something home schooling lends itself well to, is one of those signs. These individuals most likely are straightforward individuals with no ill intentions whatsoever. OTOH they may be attempting to impose their moral beliefs through a steady and unrelentless tide of “political pundits”.
I don’t think that this is the case but I ask you why are you afraid of someone posing the question that it may be the case?
That’s ridiculous. No one is imposing values on others. In addition, even if those values are being imposed what specific values do you find offensive?
If people are comfortable enough with their values, beliefs and way they live their lives then they should feel strong enough in those beliefs to allow others to live their lives in the manner that suits them as well. Or are they afraid that this “conversion” might magically happen without their knowledge or consent without their realizing it before it’s too late.
The only “crusade” happening is the one that is fictitiously being conjured up by the liberal side of the system.
I’m not afraid of anyone posing the question as you’ve been lead to believe. I just find it extremely hypocritical that the liberals who claim to be so open minded are closed to beliefs that aren’t in line with their own.
“Or are they afraid that this “conversion” might magically happen without their knowledge or consent without their realizing it before it’s too late.”
Typically isn’t this how it happens? Certainly it isn’t magically by any means. However take a look at just about any governmental movement. Unless you stand guard against it do they not simply take place and “appear”. How on earth do you think the SS tax rate got to the 15+% it is now. Certainly wasn’t magic but a slow, errosion that was not guarded against.
“That’s ridiculous. No one is imposing values on others.”
I find it rather naive that anyone would believe that no one is trying to impose their values on you. In fact at some basic level everyone is trying to impose their values on you. We make everyday desicions based on our values. To say those values are not affecting governmental policy is indeed naive.
"The only “crusade” happening is the one that is fictitiously being conjured up by the liberal side of the system. "
Again naive and closed minded to believe that anyone one side is teh only side “pushing values”
“I’m not afraid of anyone posing the question as you’ve been lead to believe. I just find it extremely hypocritical that the liberals who claim to be so open minded are closed to beliefs that aren’t in line with their own.”
I find it extremely disheartening that an individual would be so staunchly entrentched in their beliefs that they would refuse to crawl out and at least look at the possibility that the question may be valid.
Again is it not a possibility that certain individuals and groups ON BOTH SIDES are raising and preparing their children to influence government? And is not influencing government to an extreme simply imposing your belief system?
To answer your poll question, and to de-lurk for a moment, we have five kids who we home school. We live in Texas and we felt that the level of public education combined with the narrow minded attitudes of some of the teachers and administrators would retard our children’s ability to become thinking adults.
This wasn’t a religious decision, nor a political one. We just wanted our kids to learn things that weren’t on the standardized test and maybe develop an ability to investigate and find things out on their own. If you are familiar with home-schooling we probably fit more in the ‘un-schooling’ camp than home-schooling but we still do some mandatory items depending on which kid we are dealing with (i.e. the 4 year old reads with us, but the 16 year old doesn’t).
Our kids have a large circle of friends and there are also a bunch of them internally, so we haven’t seen any social issues. They are just as odd as the rest of the kids that hang around. In terms of little robots, if the plan was to make little versions of us, we have failed miserably. For two Democrat, non religious parents we have (I will leave the four year old out of the stats):
1 church-going christian, 1 church-going Jew/christian who goes to ‘chemple’. Very odd but that is where he fits, and two non church-goers.
I hard core Democrat, one moderate Republican and two undecided.
With our dealings with the home-schooling community when we first started (5+ years ago) we found that the majority of home-schoolers fell into a few basic categories:
Religious reasons (generally pretty hard core christians)
Racial reasons. My wife is black and the African-American Home School group was basically spouting how whitey was keeping them down, which certainly didn’t fit with us (but did make for funny banter when I asked when dinner was going to be ready or something, ‘OOooooh whitey is asking when his food will be ready’… etc.)
Crazy-ass kid syndrome. Kids being home-schooled because they had ADD, ADHD, or any other combination of letters. Commonly known as ‘Need-a-foot-in-the-ass’ syndrome.
Now there seem to be a bunch more kids being home-schooled because the parents feel that they can provide better opportunities at home rather than in the school environment. That is where we fit.
Now in my best Captain Kirk voice ‘Take us back to lurk more Mr Sulu…’
**Just as an informal poll - how many here were homeschooled? **
I wasn’t homeschooled, but it’s probably not too much to say that I received the bulk of my education at home, if that counts.
but I do find it a little discomfiting that people who grow up in rather narrow social circumstances, who are essentially indoctrinated in a single viewpoint (in a vaguely cultish fashion, if you read the article), have the goal of leading others and essentially dictating terms to a secular population.
Pretty much the position of the educational establishment, I believe. Not so much concerned about the educational outcome, as worried about missing the chance to indoctrinate every single last kid.
Narrow social circumstances? You must not know many homeschooled kids. In addtion to being academically accomplished, generally, they usually have a far broader social base then other kids their age.
If I were a college admissions officer, or if I was hiring someone for a job, and the only thing I knew about two competing candidates was that one of them went to public school and the other was homeschooled, I’d take the homeschooler every time.
(edited to add: I’d be extremely interested to know TripleThreat’s take on homeschooling.)
Typically isn’t this how it happens? Certainly it isn’t magically by any means. However take a look at just about any governmental movement. Unless you stand guard against it do they not simply take place and “appear”. How on earth do you think the SS tax rate got to the 15+% it is now. Certainly wasn’t magic but a slow, errosion that was not guarded against.
I’ll ask again…what specifically are we guarding against?
I find it rather naive that anyone would believe that no one is trying to impose their values on you. In fact at some basic level everyone is trying to impose their values on you. We make everyday desicions based on our values. To say those values are not affecting governmental policy is indeed naive.
Imposing their values on me specifically? In a sense, no. Turn on the tv every day and I see a lot of values being expressed but not imposed. Expression and practice of belief and values is one thing…imposing is another.
Again is it not a possibility that certain individuals and groups ON BOTH SIDES are raising and preparing their children to influence government? And is not influencing government to an extreme simply imposing your belief system?
I don’t doubt the possibility but I do doubt the reasoning behind the argument that any beliefs are unfairly being imposed on citizens of this country through what the article suggests.
So is it wrong that these homeschooled kids go on to a Christian university to study to become politicians? By that criteria alone should this exempt them from being politicians? In addition what would your proposal be to counteract this imposition of an agenda? Close the school down? Not allow Christians to become politicians?
The biggest reasons (IMO) why kids are home-schooled …
Teachers, particularly, elementary teachers spend as much, if not more time, with the few problem kids in the class as they do on everyone else. At home the student:teacher ratio is damn good. IMO, if the parent has the knowledge and the skill … go for it. Kids can get social skills in a variety of other venues (sports, groups, clubs, etc). Some public schools offer little more than “distractions to education”. I would not hesitate to home-school my kids (I am a teacher) if I thought their schools (not in school yet) were not doing a good enough job. FWIW, I am sending my kids to a Catholic school (I’m not Catholic, but Christian) because smaller class sizes equates to more attention, more activities, less distractions, I want them to learn about religion (I can always add to that at home), and we are friends with a few couples that have kids at the same age going to the same school. IMO, that is very valuable.
The parents percieve that certain topics are equated with things they are not … such as evolution as being methodological naturalism. I will say this, too often teachers and authors, speak while mixing their theology and science … and this is why that perception exists. I have run across a few teachers that literally view these issues “as war”. I do know a parent whose kid is home-schooled because they don’t want them to learn about evolution. They equate evolution to atheism. Too often teachers contribute to that perception, as I mentioned already.
I find it strange that the only “slant” not put on this is “perhaps evangelists care more about their kids’ education that they actually decide to do something about it”. No, it’s always a negative slant … isn’t it? I don’t necessarily buy that argument, but it’s weird that it is not even considered. Where are the articles pointing out the majority of parents that just accept a sub-par education for their kids because the parents can’t be troubled to do something about it? (another unfair, biased slant)
Many of the kids that go to IMSA (Illinois math and Science Academy) were home-schooled (often times as a cultural thing). Like I said, there is a lot of wasted time in the classroom trying to get “Jimmy Jackass” to follow directions … and everyone else gets held back waiting for Jimmy. If parents are capable teachers or the student is a great self-learner … go for it … they’ll get a better academic education.
This subject is just more proof that the left aren’t the open minded progressives they claim to be. The very idea that someone will do something on their own and not depend on the goverment makes them think of bombs going off instead of people taking care of themselves. They have no real argument or facts they are just going off FEELINGS.
I find it extremely disheartening that an individual would be so staunchly entrentched in their beliefs that they would refuse to crawl out and at least look at the possibility that the question may be valid.
This is goofy. Don’t both sides say this? Don’t both sides consider the other side’s view … they just find it incorrect? Is the only evidence of “considering the other side” to “convert to the other side”? I know very few people that arrived at their worldview or opinion but simply never considering another viewpoint.
It is the implauibility of the other side’s belief that lead to a strengthening of one’s own beliefs, is it not? (regardless of religion, viewpoint, or worldview)
I have always enjoyed reading your posts MJuric … and discussing with you, but in this specific thread you seem to be going off in an extreme direction.
Absolutely. But isn’t at least some fo the times, maybe most of the times true?
“Don’t both sides consider the other side’s view … they just find it incorrect?”
Absolutely not. In fact I believe most people do not give the otherside the time of day. If in fact this were the case I think most people would realize that on a daily basis on most points “the otherside” is not considerably different from there own. As my motto says “politics creates sides not solutions”
“It is the implauibility of the other side’s belief that lead to a strengthening of one’s own beliefs, is it not?”
Again I’d agree. I’d also say that for many people examining others beliefs does indeed strengthen their own.
My point is that indeed the possibilty exists and indeed it is highly likely that BOTH SIDES have racheted up the rhetoric, yet again, to the point that they are now “training” their children in the ways of politics. IOW politics is no longer a field of citizens serving the public but a field of soldiers trained for the task, a battlefield rather than a service.
This of course has been happening for years but seems to be getting worse as with most things associated with politics…IMO.
"but in this specific thread you seem to be going off in an extreme direction. "
It may indeed be extreme, but it may also be true. After watching politics for many years I’ve come to the conclusion that it is far more about winning than improving. It would not surprise me in the least bit that many groups would go to just about any lengths, including indoctrinating their children, in order to “win”