I agree with you. And Dan. And Tom (if I knew who he is) Forward position generally is better for triathlon. Heck, my own biggest problem throughout my career has been regarding bike positioning and usually sitting to far back. I like to sit like Larsen and not Björn myself. It´s just that I´ve ridden so much with Björn and time and time again he´s proven to be both powerful and comfortable in that position.
Very early in his career Björn had a Hotta bike and sitting very forward and yes, riding fast there as well. However, Moving further and furher back have made him even more powerful. He´s not randomly guessing but have very extensively studied this matter and experimented so I´d say that Björn has really good incentives for sitting the way he does.
please pardon my cynicism, but i wanted to make sure we were talking to the REAL bjorn, and not an imposter (nobody would actually post as someone else, would he?).
i remember talking to tim shaw once, ex fabulously talented long distance swimmer, then swim coach at cal state long beach (don’t know if he still is, or what he’s doing now).
he told me that he didn’t have the sort of budget, or program, that could compare with, say, stanford, so when he went recruiting he’d specifically look for those with fixable problems. rather than trying to get the high schooler who’d gone 4:20 for the 500yd free, he’d get the guy who’d gone 4:28 but, when his technical problems were fixed, could go 4:18.
i know a little bit about bjorn, through the people he’s been spending time with. he’s an EXCEPTIONAL talent, and while he might take exception to those who’re trashing his bike position, one salivates at the potential. how many athletes can make up the time in a 30-minute fit session that others would require 30 months of training? he’s new, he’s young, and he’s got a very big motor. it’ll be fun to watch the progress.
Definately appears that Larsen has a huge advantage, but then we’ve also seen pictures of Lance’s TT positon that also don’t look right, and doubt if Larsen would ever be passing Lance as he is here with Andersson.
Could also be the engine, although Slowman has a good point.
This might be one of these “I told you so”-things but as it was a rather HOT topic a few weeks back I can´t help myself for wanting to follow through on this.
Björn was a little bit scolded for an unusual bike-position after WF but I said to keep an eye on him when he was healthy. Well, today at Half-IM Utah he outsplitted everyone (Reid, Tissink, Legh, Lovato, Cam Brown, Alexander, Tony DeBoom, etc) by a huge amount on the bike and led of the bike with more than 5 minutes. He did 2.07 for a half-IM bike! He eventually finished second behind Brown by a mere 6 seconds after a finish sprint.
My point? I don´t know but I guess seeing that the kid is kicking some serious butt despite being unorthodox. Sometimes there´s more to it than meets the eye…
Referring to Larsen’s position in the very first photo of this thread, am I the only one that thinks something is wrong with HIS bike position?
It seems that way to me. If a rider spends much of a race halfway off the front of his/her saddle, SOMETHING is not right. I mean, what is the bloody seat designed for?! If one is going to ride it that way, one might as well saw off the back half of it.
Regardless of Larsen’s quite respectable bike speed, it seems to me that either his butt should come back or else the seat should come forward. And maybe the improved comfort or mechanics will give him additional speed.
To make things clear, I haven´t done any major changes to my position the past months. I´m not a big fan of changing stuff too much in the middle of the season. One thing to remember though, is that the bike was brand new in WF and I didn´t have enough time to adjust to it before the race. So it might look slightly different.
For me the main problem is not my position but the fact that I can´t run. Something I´m trying to work on.
Björn : Really cool of you to reply, sorry to drag this up, if you stopped riding so fast maybe it wouldn’t be getting this much discussion!I had thought the comment that I read about you riding more forward was quite interesting, so thanks for filling us in with the facts. I wouldn’t take any of the previous posts the wrong way, just people curious if you could even go FASTER just through a position change ? Maybe, maybe not, maybe on the run, maybe not ? (Lots of maybes !) About your position being referred to by one person as “awful”. I think that was probably referring more to being uncomfortable, which is a pretty personal thing. Maybe consider these examples - I’ve never seen video footage, but I’ve read comments about Dave Scott’s running style not being particularly graceful (I wish I ran so “ungracefully”!) Oh, and Paula Radcliffe bobbing her head when she runs, she must be clueless Anyway, from the photos it looks like your position has come a little forward from the Wildflower photos, maybe for the reasons you said. Whether your position has changed or not I think you look pretty comfortable in the Half IM UK photo, seems to work for you given Jonas’ comments about your strength. As far as your comment about your run, give yourself a break, you had just ridden pretty damn fast ! Charly Loisel is super-strong on the bike himself and you left him behind. Looking at the results, if Richard Allen and others had tried more to limit their losses to you on the bike I doubt they would have run so quick. Sounds like you have put a lot of thought into the way you race. Doesn’t seem like all pro’s are in the same boat. For example, speaking of Larson in this thread, I was amazed after his first ride at Hawaii when he said he was riding a traditional roadie seat angle of 73.5 degrees or so, when in actual fact the guy who set his Lotus up for the race suggested he was more like 76 degrees or more, and all the photos seemed to confirm this. Good luck with the running and best of luck with your upcoming races.
I think Andersson is in a much better position than Larsen, although in the first picture he does look a long way back. The other pictures show Anderssons position a whole lot clearer.
Don’t forget that we are all different and what suits one rider does not suit another.
Everyone keeps talking of how much faster Andersson would go if he had a better fit. I bet if he rode like Larsen then he would most likely go slower.
To me Anderson has a more classic TT position.
The following images of Bradley Mcgee (TDF2003 Prologue winner)
I followed this thread down through its permutations and I must say that I feel for Larsen. He is probably riding on the end of his saddle because that is as far forward as he can get with his equipment. I have the same problem of not being able to go far enough forward, so I end up sitting on the end of my saddle.
During my late teens and early 20’s I race USCF Cat 4, 3 and a little bit in France. At the time my position was sacred. I put my seat as far back on the rails as possible and never touched it. When I did time trials I just bolted on the aero bars and tried to ride it that way. I never understood why I could not ride fast. Though I didn’t know it at the time, my hip angle was way too closed. When I started racing tri’s, I experimented with my position long enough that I arrived at a very forward position. I was riding a Scott bike with about a 78 degree seat tube and a profile forward post. I was finally comfortable in the time trial position all the way up to Half-IM races and I stayed that way the whole race.
I bought an old Cervelo P2 this year and raced it twice, the second a Half-IM that I nearly didn’t finish the bike because my back hurt and my right leg had shooting pains when I pedaled. I finally decided I was too far back and bought a seat shifter to get me another 40mm forward. Problem solved. A month after the first half-IM I rode my best ever 56 miles at Eagleman (an got passed by packs of riders drafting, but that is a whole different issue) and then had my best run.
I note time and time again at races that people spend a good deal of time sitting up in the wind, not using their aerobars. Why is this? I think there are two problems:
Most people don’t spend enough time in the aero position (me included) to be able to hold it for Half-IM distances and longer.
Recreational triathletes think that “extreme” forward positions are for the pros and “serious” riders.
While the first is just a fact of training, the second is a misconception that does an injustice to the recreational rider. Nothing the rider can buy will make as much an aerodynamic difference as flattening their back and presenting a smaller profile to the wind.
Some may argue that too much power is lost being so far forward and this might be valid if we were just time trialing. Since we run afterwards, it would behoove most athletes to concentrate on aerodynamics and efficiency thereby arriving at the run as fresh as possible.
Now to circle back to Larsen’s position. A Cervelo P3 can be ridden at 78 degrees with the post forward. Most people consider this pretty extreme, but I am not really comfortable until I hit what I can only estimate is 82 to 84 degrees. That is why people ride on the end of their saddle, but bike manufacturers just don’t make bikes steep enough to arrive at a comfortable position. New riders just assume it is to uncomfortable to ride long and sit up all the time.
Re: Now to circle back to Larsen’s position. A Cervelo P3 can be ridden at 78 degrees with the post forward. Most people consider this pretty extreme, but I am not really comfortable until I hit what I can only estimate is 82 to 84 degrees. That is why people ride on the end of their saddle, but bike manufacturers just don’t make bikes steep enough to arrive at a comfortable position. New riders just assume it is to uncomfortable to ride long and sit up all the time.
I’ll preface this by saying that I don’t own a P3, but looking at the geometry charts the P3 is at 78 degrees through the center of the clamp with the seatpost flipped forward, i.e., if you mount a saddle with the clamp in the middle of the rails it’ll be at 78 degrees. If you slide the saddle all the way forward on the rails you should be able to be much steeper than 78 degrees on a P3 (80-81 degrees?). I don’t think that the mechanical limitations of the bike are preventing Larsen from achieving a steeper seat angle, especially since it doesn’t even look like he has mounted the saddle in it’s most extreme forward position. I would guess that he just prefers to ride it this way.
you’re right on both accounts. Larsen has the seatpost head in the back position. I’ve measured the seat angle on my P2k (head flipped forward, fizik alliante pushed all the way forward) using a formula found on this board, and came up with 81.5.
Referring to Larsen’s position in the very first photo of this thread, am I the only one that thinks something is wrong with HIS bike position?
It seems that way to me. If a rider spends much of a race halfway off the front of his/her saddle, SOMETHING is not right. I mean, what is the bloody seat designed for?! If one is going to ride it that way, one might as well saw off the back half of it.
Anyway, from the photos it looks like your position has come a little forward from the Wildflower photos, maybe for the reasons you said. Whether your position has changed or not I think you look pretty comfortable in the Half IM UK photo, seems to work for you given Jonas’ comments about your strength. As far as your comment about your run, give yourself a break, you had just ridden pretty damn fast ! Charly Loisel is super-strong on the bike himself and you left him behind. Looking at the results, if Richard Allen and others had tried more to limit their losses to you on the bike I doubt they would have run so quick. Sounds like you have put a lot of thought into the way you race. Doesn’t seem like all pro’s are in the same boat. For example, speaking of Larson in this thread, I was amazed after his first ride at Hawaii when he said he was riding a traditional roadie seat angle of 73.5 degrees or so, when in actual fact the guy who set his Lotus up for the race suggested he was more like 76 degrees or more, and all the photos seemed to confirm this. Good luck with the running and best of luck with your upcoming races.
