We all have heard the benefits of higher cadence / RPM in biking and running.
How about in swimming? Is this good or bad?
I was doing my 2 mile swim this morning at the pool and the lifeguard commented that my stroke count per 25 yard is too high. He say I should be doing 10 strokes on a 25 yard and instead I was doing 17. I have a fast turnover. I am trying to keep a continuous cycle of movement going. When I do less, I don’t glide as much and there is a moment where I can feel my momentum slowdown before my next revolution. This is probably due to poor technique on my part. I am a MOP swimmer with a 1:10 time for 2.4 miles.
Greg Hall Sr. can probably speak better to this than myself but their are two things to consider 1) You arm length will greatly dictate your stroke rate. If you have shorter limbs you will have to turn over faster to, where a person with longer limbs has a longer push phase and thus can get away with a lower stroke rate. 2) Open water swimming is much different than pool swimming and the higher the stroke rate the better usually. This is beneficial for choppy and congested conditions. The key is a strong push at the back.
We all have heard the benefits of higher cadence / RPM in biking and running.
How about in swimming? Is this good or bad?
I was doing my 2 mile swim this morning at the pool and the lifeguard commented that my stroke count per 25 yard is too high. He say I should be doing 10 strokes on a 25 yard and instead I was doing 17. I have a fast turnover. I am trying to keep a continuous cycle of movement going. When I do less, I don’t glide as much and there is a moment where I can feel my momentum slowdown before my next revolution. This is probably due to poor technique on my part. I am a MOP swimmer with a 1:10 time for 2.4 miles.
Thoughts?
Your lifeguard is either pulling your leg or an idiot. Firstly, everyone is different, and some may do better with a high cadence. Secondly, unless you are eight feet tall with arms to match, ten strokes per length is crazy for all but the best swimmers. Low stroke count is a red herring.
(FWIW, I take 19-22 strokes per length scy, and I can do a 500 in under 5:50 off the wall in practice)
Greg Hall Sr. can probably speak better to this than myself but their are two things to consider 1) You arm length will greatly dictate your stroke rate. If you have shorter limbs you will have to turn over faster to, where a person with longer limbs has a longer push phase and thus can get away with a lower stroke rate. 2) Open water swimming is much different than pool swimming and the higher the stroke rate the better usually. This is beneficial for choppy and congested conditions. The key is a strong push at the back.
I recently had an exchange with Matt Dixon of Purple Patch on Twitter where he stated “the vast majority” of triathletes “have a stroke rate of 55-70 strokes per minute. Needs to be higher”. This response was based on a question I had to an earlier tweet of his “in the swim: don’t focus on dist/stroke (irrelevant to OW swim). focus on stroke rate. Most triathletes over glide + rotate = pretty + slow”.
Food for thought…
It’s bad only if you can go faster by taking faster strokes!
It varies
However, if the person was saying 17 stroke cycles, or 34 separate hand entries per 25 yards, then yeah that’s high. If it is 17 total hand entries, that is somewhat low for a typical crowd of triathletes.
Even with a windmill style, or arms in opposition style you can get to less than 34 hand entries per 25 yards. even if you are 5’2". Spend your time streamlined, don’t push down into the water, push backwards.
Most often in adult swimmers you push down because you are lifting your head to breathe, wasting energy, making your legs sink, and also losing the first third of your pull.
So figure out which it is, 17 strokes or 17 stroke cycles.
It’s bad only if you can go faster by taking faster strokes!
It varies
However, if the person was saying 17 stroke cycles, or 34 separate hand entries per 25 yards, then yeah that’s high. If it is 17 total hand entries, that is somewhat low for a typical crowd of triathletes.
Even with a windmill style, or arms in opposition style you can get to less than 34 hand entries per 25 yards. even if you are 5’2". Spend your time streamlined, don’t push down into the water, push backwards.
Most often in adult swimmers you push down because you are lifting your head to breathe, wasting energy, making your legs sink, and also losing the first third of your pull.
So figure out which it is, 17 strokes or 17 stroke cycles.
He was referring to 17 stroke cycles or 34 separate hand entries, but when I think about it and do a dry land version of my stroke for my 25 yrd pace, I definitely am not doing 34 separate hand entries. Maybe more like 24, or 12 stroke cycles.
I keep getting told that my 22 right arm strokes per 25 yrds is too high, but then I still come out of the water in the top 10% overall of every race from a sprint to a an IM, so go figure.
I keep getting told that my 22 right arm strokes per 25 yrds is too high, but then I still come out of the water in the top 10% overall of every race from a sprint to a an IM, so go figure.
Hey, if it worked for Janet Evans …
Are you swimming one-arm? 44 strokes per 25scy? Given a push off and a turn, that’s like half a yard per stroke.
I’d say having the ABILITY to do as few strokes per length as possible is important. You have to have good fundamentals and body position to be able to do it. But that doesn’t mean you should race like that. You can find what turnover works best for you personally by doing some time trials in the pool.
We all have heard the benefits of higher cadence / RPM in biking and running.
How about in swimming? Is this good or bad?
I was doing my 2 mile swim this morning at the pool and the lifeguard commented that my stroke count per 25 yard is too high. He say I should be doing 10 strokes on a 25 yard and instead I was doing 17. I have a fast turnover. I am trying to keep a continuous cycle of movement going. When I do less, I don’t glide as much and there is a moment where I can feel my momentum slowdown before my next revolution. This is probably due to poor technique on my part. I am a MOP swimmer with a 1:10 time for 2.4 miles.
Thoughts?
I think having strong enough fundamentals that would enable one to have a good pace at a low stroke count (dps) is important. It tends to indicate both a good catch and stroke (good propulsion) and a good body position throughout the stroke (low resistance). Also, no matter what their strokes look like above the water, a huge proportion of world class pool swimmers get a tremendous distance per stroke (they also have a high cadence – the combination of dps and cadence is what makes them world class).
As to whether this is the best way to race a triathlon swim in open water (especially for swimmers without world class technique) is much more of an individual matter (and the subject of as many opinions as there are people thinking about it). Personally, I like to change my cadence/dps during the swim. For me, I do not know whether higher or lower cadence is inherently faster, but I feel that a cadence change enables me to recruit slightly different muscle groups, so when I change cadence I feel fresh for a while. Changing cadence also causes me to re-evaluate my form. I am out there swimming for an hour or so, but it is easy for me just to do it pretty mindlessly. I can drift into suboptimal technique over the course of a swim. Anything (like a cadence change) that reminds me to re-evaluate is helpful.
Thus there are really only two ways to get faster: increase distance per stroke or increase stroke rate. So to the point: is higher turnover rate good or bad. Well of course it is good. Is DPS good or bad. Well of course it’s good. Should you increase your stroke rate? Yes. Should you increase your DPS? Yes. We work on both in my Masters workouts.
The complication is that as you increase stroke rate DPS decreases and vice versa. So what is best? That depends on an individual’s unique anatomy, skill level, and the distance of the race. For OWS, I do not know the studies, but I believe the best swimmers tend to have faster stroke rates relative to world-class pool swimmers. Having said that, IMHO too many novice/MOP swimmers spend all efforts to increase stroke rate to the point that it is not the best long-term solution for faster swimming. Everyone has to experiment to determine the best for them. But I believe it’s best to focus on length initially and then add turnover as technical skill level improves.
Ive posted on this a few times and get varying degrees of feedback.
Distance Per Stroke is the single most detrimental paradigm in the sport.
Your dps is NOT determined by your arm length or hand size. Those sizes vary little, specifically when measured against height (both floor to head/hand and torso ht).
Cadence in swimming is spoken of as stroke rate (which I use… which is the amount of time between individual hand hits) or by stroke cycle (described in earlier post).
Your second valid point you made is great. You touched on your “rhythm” of your arm swings (i think you said you were trying to be continuous with them and that when you are not you can feel yourself slow down.) You could not have said it better. Rhythm IS one of the top three ways to solicit feedback about what is happening with you (velocity-wise) in the water.
Great question and even better observations.
Good Luck
DaveD
Are you swimming one-arm? 44 strokes per 25scy? Given a push off and a turn, that’s like half a yard per stroke.
Wait, what? You can push off of a turn?
While I do swim one-arm drills, you’re right, I am pretty consistently 22 strokes per length, 44 per 50 yards. I was trying to respond to the previous post with like terms regarding number of hand entries and I just plain dropped the ball in mid-response.