Help: Running Advice

Triathlon Forum
1

Hi guys - I know there is a ton of info on running here and I’ve read a lot of it, but I hope that some of you will be able to read through this and give me some advice specific to my experiences. I value the information, experience and dedication to the sport on here, so I’m hopeful to get some good feedback. I’ll give you guys some background info and then my questions. My goals are to be injury free and “competitive” in my AG for as long as possible at the Oly and HIM distances.

I’m 32, I was a team-sport athlete through college, never a “runner”, and I started running in 2007. I got into running the same way most non-runners do, I wanted to lose some and then control my weight and stay “in shape”. I went from couch to <4:00 marathon in a year and ran a couple of 3:47’s in 2009 and 2010 with a number of 1:45 or so HM’s and a PR of 1:38. Not bad, not great. From what I know now, all of this was done completely under-trained (30mpw was rare and the max), and certainly not 12 months a year. After the 2010 NYC Marathon I decided I’d step away from marathon running and incorporate strength training to be more well-rounded, which I’m very glad I did. It gave me a new appreciation for fitness. I really believe the more types of “fit” things you do, the more you can appreciate all the different types of athletes types of exercise out there.

So until this summer I spent the past couple of years strength training and running 2-3 a week to maintain my run fitness. It was going well, until I ran a race in May of 2012 and tore some articular cartilage in my knee. Microfracture surgery followed in July and most of the second half of 2012 was lost to injury. A couple friends did some tri’s in 2012 and I got hooked cheering them on, bought a bike at the end of 2012 and decided I was going to give it a shot. I eased my way back into running, got into pool for the first time in my adult years, and started on the bike.

Still followed my own uneducated running plan by going 2-3 times a week, mostly all of my runs at or near race pace with long run being 50% or so of my mileage. My training, though not textbook netted me results I was happy with as I was able to finish my first Oly in 2:32 in mid July running 46 min off the bike. I followed that up with a 2:30 at the end of Sep, also running 46min. However, in between races I developed plantar fascitis and a nonunion of a fifth metatarsal fracture I’ve had since I’m 15 was really bothering me around the clock. I thought for sure I had another fracture but the MRI was clean, except for the PF and the original fracture that will never heal. The start of the off-season was spent trying to figure out my foot issues and running about 1-2 times a week just to keep some fitness.

In mid November I came across BarryP’s and some other frequency based threads and thought that I could really benefit from this type of training to help me build a strong aerobic base for this season and avoid some of these nagging injuries. I’m a short run away from completing my 4th week of 6x a week running and my plantar fascitis symptoms are mostly gone, I don’t have anything nagging me and my body feels way better than I expected. However, I feel like I’m taking steps back because I’m doing the majority of my running is being done at an “easy conversation pace” as suggested in “Part 1”.

I started off with two weeks at 2/4/6 and just finishing two weeks at 2.25/4.5/7, and will bump it up next week - most of my running is done at a 8:50-9:20 min per mile pace, with maybe 4-5 of the total miles getting under 8:00 a mile. Does this sound right? From what I read here I can’t imagine a lot of you are running in the 9min a mile range often. How long do I base build until I start doing more specific workouts to increase my speed and get me ready for my races? I don’t feel like I could run anywhere near a 46min 10k right now, so I feel like I’m taking some steps back for future benefit?? Should I work my way up to 30 mpw and then start with more specific workouts? I’m hoping to peak at the end of the season at Princeton 70.3. I will be doing a half marathon in mid April, Raleigh 70.3 on June ,1 and another Olympic or two at some point. Hoping you guys can help me out and keep me going in the right direction. I think I’m on the road to something better, but also looking for some reassurance and some success stories with similar approaches. Thanks!

2

You might want to do a tl;dr.

  1. Various injuries including PF but that seems to be healing
  2. Using Barry’s plan
  3. Am I doing it right?
  4. When should I start speedwork?

Does that sum it up?

I don’t have a lot of advice except that you want to build endurance and not kill yourself on speedwork. I’ve been running semi-regularly for 11 years. My biggest run volumes have been 45-50 MPW without injury. I run 6x/week with a couple easy runs, one long run, and a couple speed-type sessions. Those can be short intervals or long intervals. Sometimes hill repeats are in there.

My long runs are usually 60-75 seconds/mile slower than race pace. Speedwork, depending on what I’m doing, is usually 60 seconds faster than race pace.

I don’t use a formula, I use a coach so I don’t have to think about all of this. I just do what she says.

3

Thanks - you summed it up. Usually ppl want background info so I was a little long winded.

4

4 weeks into the plan and you’ve got buyers remorse? You could always PM BarryP and ask for a full refund if you think the plan is not working out for you. I bet he’d give you a full refund and return your plantar fascitis symptoms back to you along with your “good, not great” 10K run split.

Patience…you need to be fast later, not now.

5

Not at all. Really just looking for reassurance that I’m approaching it right and any advice I can get. I’m changing my approach to running after doing it incorrectly for 6 years. Funny though, thanks.

6

You are doing it right. The thing about distance run training is that most of the work you do – or at least most of the work you should do – doesn’t feel like it’s helping you much at all. It doesn’t hurt. That’s normal. That easy running is exactly what allows you to run more often and up your weekly volume. And the volume produces results. Speed is a component, but should be a small one. You already have the speed to run a 10k minutes faster than you are doing. It isn’t lack of speed that prevents you from doing it. It’s lack of the ability to hold the speed you’ve got over a long enough time. That’s a lack of endurance.

The BarryP plan helps you build that endurance through frequency. That’s a key way to do it. You do shorter runs, mostly easy and it does not beat you up. As a result, instead of feeling you need a day off, you can do another run the next day. The consistency this approach enables works wonders.

So if you feel it’s not taxing you and you want to push things, don’t push the speed yet. And don’t push the single-run-distance. Not when you are only running 3 days a week. Instead, if you must push, try pushing the frequency a bit more. Add in another 3 or 4 mile run. Don’t add speed until you can run 4 or even 5 days a week without feeling run down.

If you aren’t doing it already, keep a log. You must track your training over time if you ever want to learn anything from it. It’s only then, with a few months (or years) of data that you can start to spot the patterns in your training that produce good results and the ones that produce bad results.

7

Great, thanks - this is what I was hoping to hear. I should clarify, I have run 6x a week the past 4 weeks. 2/4/6 was the distance in miles of my 3 short, 2 medium, 1 long run for the first two weeks.

8

I’ll admit I don’t know exactly what Barry recommends. Personally, whenever I’m coming back to running from a long layoff (like… now), I don’t look to do any speed until I have at least 3 weeks in a row of 5 days a week. Then I’ll add in one day of speed. After a few more weeks, I usually add in a second day. It doesn’t have to be structured at all. During this time of year, I prefer unstructured. A block of fartlek, an impromptu tempo run, maybe jump into a 5k some weekend. Get yourself used to intermittent bouts of speed where you’re not monitoring a watch long before you even go near a track.

9

When I found BarryP’s threads in late 2010, I began my 6x per week running with 3,6,9 mile runs.

I ran the 3 x 3 milers at my easy pace.

The 2 x 6 milers were some type of workout. They were a mix of either a progression run, 2 x 2mile tempo run, marathon pace run or even something slower than MP but faster than long run pace (I called it my general conditioning pace).

The 1 x 9 miler was at long run pace (faster than easy, but slower than general conditioning pace).

I added mileage throughout the winter by only adding distance to one type of run each week. So one week I’d add 1/2 mile to all my easy runs. the next week I’d add distance to my workout runs. The third week I’d add distance to my long run. The 4th week, I start the process over again.

I hope this helps. good luck over the winter.

10

For what its worth, my tri/running experience was very similar to yours way back in my early 30s. I did a couple of marathons sub 4 and tried a couple of sprint and Olympic distance events. I was a 18 minute/40 minute open 5k/10k guy when running 3 times a week. Then I gave it all up to focus on my true passion, cycling.

Now, 12 years later… I started BarryP in September. Started from absolute scratch other than a lot of years of riding my bike. I had the lungs, but zero running legs. I only measure time, but I started with 8 minutes a day at around 11 minute miles to make sure I prevented any type of injury from popping up. I am now doing 22/42/60 minutes at just over 9 minutes per mile. I will build to 45/90/120 and then keep repeating that. I am doing Raleigh 70.3 as well. I swim 6 days a week and am only riding 2 to 3 times per week on the trainer to try and not lose too much bike fitness (FTP). I know my bike will come around when I start adding the miles in March.

Trust in the process. Right now you aren’t injured. You are slowly building your mileage. Now is the perfect time to not worry about being fast. I would even slow down on some of your faster runs as you build volume. If you build your mileage up to a consistent 40 to 50 miles a week on top of your other training, my guess is you will be running well under 46 minutes in an Olympic race. Well under. Reread BarryP’s advice on 70.3 running. You aren’t going to need too much speedwork beyond a weekly tempo run that you can start once you hit your weekly mileage goal.

Also realize that your best running won’t occur next year, but more likely the year after and then the year after that. You will be amazed at the pace you can eventually maintain by just getting out there and running as much and as often as possible. It worked for me on the bike, I know it will work for me on the run (and hoping it will work with the swim).

One more thing. Never stop running. I am 43 now and the running legs are just not coming back like they used to when I was younger. The improvement and adaptation is taking me much, much, longer than I had anticipated. It sucks getting old.

11

I developed PF in 2001 when I began running longer distances, but it’s hard to say whether it was the running or the sudden increase in cycling that caused the PF.

12

You need the mileage, and you need it for a number of months.

I am not familiar with this BarryP, but it looks like he’s having you build some kind of base before you start any significant lactate threashold or VO2 training. That is common practice, especially with new runners such as yourself.

I know you have put down some good times and have been running for a while, but your training is quite light and the injuries are a direct result of theat light training. One of the primary purposes of base training is to toughen the joints and tendons. These tissues get far, far less circulation that muscle does, so they tend to develop more slowly to the stresses of training. That leaves them open to injury when training gets more strenuous.

I am not sure how long this program has you doing base training, but I would suggest doing the slow, consistent miles for six months. No faster stuff. I am better he’ll be done with this in a month or two, but the longer duration will provide you with a real base and allow you to beat the crap out of yourself six months from now.

The base training also stuffs your muscles with more mitochondria, and that comes in handy during longer bouts of training.

One of the most important skills you need to be an endurance athlete is patience.

Best of luck with this stuff.

13

In short I’ll present you this:

Running a ton of milage, if you can handle it, WILL make you fast. If you could run 120 miles a week, you would be in excellent shape and nothing would tire you out.

The whole point of this approach is that you gradually work toward whatever the optimal milage for you is. Just keep slowly ramping up the mileage, and at some point you will feel like you are just really getting in some solid weekly training.

14

+1… BarryP’s plan is awesome! You have to have some faith in what you are doing, but over time you will see some very impressive results. I build up to 45 miles a week (was running 25 most of the year) and just watched seconds shave off my pace at a given HR. Even after a non-running related injury where I had to take 3-4 weeks off of running and slowly building back into the miles, the performance gains are still there. Once I get myself back up to 40+ mpw (3 more weeks to get back up there), I’ll stick around there for a while and focus on the bike for the next few months. When we get closer to the race season I’ll add some additional run miles (50+mpw) to make sure I’m getting some longer runs in.

Depending on the race you are training for, I’m not sure how much speed work you need. Personally I did the speed work thing for a HIM and it hurt me in the long run. This year my running is all LSD for my jump to IM and I honestly think I’ll be significantly faster than I was last year simply because I’ll be healthier and better trained.

15

another +1 for BarryP. I started at 1/2/3 after not running for over a year. I am now in week 7 and honestly I have never felt better running. I am running faster at the same heart rate from when I started. You just have to be patient and be consistent.

16

In the past, I’ve had plantar fasciitis problems and IT band issues. However, since I started a stretching regime every day and before I run, I haven’t had a problem.

17

Stick with it, and don’t worry about the speed work for now. Just keep at it with the frequency and the gradual build. I’m injury prone and 46 years old, and from a running background that emphasized a lot of speed. But running steady every day has worked wonders for me in the last 3 years. I never thought I’d be running PRs in my mid-40s. I’ve been amazed at how fast I’ve been able to run without focusing on speed work in training.

18

+1000 to all the ‘big mileage works’ advice as well as the BUILD SLOW approach to getting there.

The upside for triathletes is that you typically don’t have to run big mileage day in day out once you’ve built it up - the x-over effects from cycling will typically allow you to run 90-95% of your ability for races short of a marathon. (The marathon will definitely have you underperform at low mileage, no way around it.) The key though is that you have to have done this type of big-volume training at some point, which usually means a run-focus block or blocks. But once you get that endurance and speed, it wakes up quick from smaller training stimuli down the road.

19

Thank you all for the encouragement and the reassurance I was hoping to get. I get IT now.

20

Update:

I stuck to the 6x a week training since late November and only had two weeks where I did less than that (all while trying to beat this damn plantar fasciitis). I built up from 20mpw to 45mpw and a typical week was three recovery runs, a long run, tempo run, and mile repeats.

Yesterday I ran the Rutgers Half Marathon, my first running race in two years since I injured my knee and had microfracture surgery. I ran a 1:32:30, a 6 min PR and a pace faster than I had ever had at any distance race previously.

This model of consistency and frequency really worked for me and I’m thankful to have found this plan when I did. You have a believer in me!