Help: My Dog Bites

[BottomFeeder]

So we rescued this 9-year old Australian Cattle Dog 6 weeks ago, and he has bitten three people and lunged at at least four others. So far, we have been able to defuse the situations. But we are afraid next time will bring truly ugly consequences including somebody getting hurt, us getting sued, and him losing his life.

Some background. The previous owner revelead that he was an indoor dog who wasn’t taken out too often and wasn’t socialized with other humans. The couple divorced and gave him to the shelter. His name is Bandit (pictures to come…). We have grown quite fond of him as he is an otherwise awesome dog: loyal, playful, submissive (to us), healthy, funny, and a budding athlete! We live in a two-bedroom condo with a small backyard. He gets a 10-minute walk around the block in the morning and a 40-minute run (he runs, I bike) in the evening. He wears a weighted backpack for an extra challenge. Oftentimes we take him on an hour hike in the evening. On weekends, we like to take him and our 9-year old pug to the dog park. In his “off” time, he likes to sleep on the couch, play with his squeaky toys, play fetch up and down the stairs, play tug-of-war, and follow Lisa all over the house! He is actually sociable with other dogs and people in public settings.

The circumstances of his aggression are as follows:

First bite - Cable guy shows up. Door was open. Bandit made a beeline for him from the back yard and bit him through the pants. Teeth marks but no broken skin. Guy forgave him pretty fast, bless his heart.

Second bite - Window guy shows up, and we greeted him in the parking lot. I shook hands with the guy when he lost his footing and began to fall. Lisa had Bandit on the leash about 4 feet away when he lunged and bit the guy in a split-second. No broken skin, but the guy was quite traumatized. We were lucky he went on to do the work and didn’t press charges. We thought we had learned our lesson from the first time, but this dog can be quite sneaky!

Third bite - I went out for a second and didn’t close the door fast enough. Bandit squeeze through and made a beeline for a guy walking just outside the house. He bit him on the ankle and broke skin, albeit very lightly. I was mortified. Luckily the guy was neighborly and forgave us, but only after we paid for his visit to the emergency care.

Bandit has lunged at and harrassed others, always around the house or the car. He has a particular passion for the mail man. But he has been known to go after complete strangers, either because of a perceived threat such as physical contact with his owners, or for no reason at all - not that we can discern anyway. It’s safe to say that he is possessive aggressive.

So we have a few options: 1) put him down, 2) give him back to the shelter, 3) give him to an ACD rescue group, or 4) try to rehabilitate him. Option 1 is last-resort, but it’s very real. Option 2 doesn’t sit well with us because that just offloads the problems onto the next family, not to mention give him extra heartache and stress. Option 3 is slightly better than option 2 - at least there’s hope that somebody knows what they’re doing and can give him what he needs. Option 4 is what I want to discuss on this board…

I want to know what I’m against when we rehabilitate him. Is it even possible to reverse 9 years of bad behavior? We want to regulate his behavior enough that we can predict when he is going to bite and take precautionary measures. It’s not an ideal situation, but I can live with that. We are willing to make some sacrifices to train him and to accomodate him, but there are limits to these sacrifices. I want to get a feel for whether we have what it takes to embark on this journey.

I have already contacted the vet, who told me to work with a behaviorist, who charges $250/hour (first visit is at least 1.5 hours, but that includes free consultation over the phone or email for the next three months). So that’s the first hurdle - the money. I would be lying if I said money is no object for this quest. Then there is the time spent training him - how much time per day are we talking about here? I can see devoting an hour a day, but not 2 hours for example… And what other resources are needed besides time and money? Discipline? Patience? Ingenuity? Anybody has walked in my shoes who can illuminate my path?

And what about the efficacy? Even if we do everything “right” by a certain date (gotta have a deadline for purposes of discussion), will it be enough? The vet mentioned putting him on doggie Prozac. How effective is that? How will it affect his quality of life?

Another good way to probe this board is to ask: what would YOU do?

Sorry for the long post - gotta vent here.

[MJuric]

Sounds like a job for Ceser.

In short he has this behavior for a reason. More than likely there is something going on that should give you hints of this “Coming on” and you have to catch and stop those hints before it get’s to the point of biting.

I’d start by having a “Stranger”, although someone you know, come to the door and correct his actions if it’s anything but completely non aggressive and passive.

Keep doing that until he has no problems with someone at the door, then in the yard, and on and on.

~Matt

[Brick]

You need to make sure you know your breed. Here is a brief description I found slightly edited:

ACDs are usually reserved with strangers and fiercely protective if they perceive their property and/or people are being threatened.

These dogs are very loyal, protective and alert and make excellent guard dogs. They are also brave and trustworthy.

The ACD needs to be handled firmly yet fairly, and it is totally loyal and obedient to its master, and it’s a one-person dog. They can suspicious of people and dogs they don’t know and can be very dog aggressive, because they are very dominant.

This is not a good dog with children unless it has known the children since puppyhood. Many tend to nip at people’s heels in an attempt to herd them. Avoid strictly working lines if you are looking for just a pet, as these dogs are too active and intense for home life.

So, it appears that you are working against breeding to some extent.

I have dealt with two biters in my life and I am sorry to say that I was not able to completely train away the tendency. Both were rescue dogs with some prior history of mistreatment.

1. Get a muzzle and make your dog wear it. For your protection and his. Another bite could mean a death sentence for him.

2. A tired dog is a good dog. I think you need to find a way to get the dog more exercise on a daily basis.

3. While wearing the muzzle train the dog to sit at your command in the presence of others. This will need to be done on nearly a daily basis. Any training guide can give you the basics on how to do this.

Good luck.

[skip]

You know this but it bears repeating - if he actually bites someone who doesn’t let you off the hook, you could be in for a world of financial hurt way beyond the cost of the behaviorist unless you subsequently (and successfully) blatantly lie to the authorities and/or your insurance company about the history. You’ve been very lucky so far. 2 strikes is normally about it for a biting dog, and the age of the dog is not a plus as far as changing his behavior. But as an avid dog lover I’m definitely sympathetic to your hope for rehabilitation. The consultation fee sounds high, but maybe that’s because of the included followup and/or because the person has an outstanding reputation/results, or because it’s a serious problem rather than a basic training consult - regardless, you do need to get some sort of immediate professional help, and then see what happens. If the behaviorist ends up ultimately giving you a favorable prognosis, I think you may be able to rely on that to some degree going forward…but you’re going to have to be super diligent, and willing to give up at some point if it doesn’t work. And you don’t want that decision point to be forced by a damaging bite - there can be no more bites! Muzzled, locked up and cowering is obviously no way for the dog to go through life, and nervous at every turn/freaking out that a gate/door/leash mistake could be made will be torturous for you and your family as well. My biggest concern is your constraint on training time - it’s going to be 7/24 to a certain extent, not just a couple of hours of explicit “work” each day. Not that you will be constantly training, rather that every minute the dog is in contact with anyone, including people he seemingly gets along fine with, you will need to be actively paying attention - monitoring, interpreting, guiding, correcting etc. You can’t just “have a dog” and fix him. You either totally integrate him into the family and fix him, or you let him go.

[alaina1]

Since you mentioned the previous owners, is there any way you could find out if he bit humans before coming to you? That could help figure out why he’s biting, and also if you are up against 9 years of biting, or just a new thing related to being adopted. It’s also really important to understand if it’s JUST your house, or if it’s any human, anywhere. From your description, it sounds like it’s just your property, and if that’s the case, that would make me hopeful about being able to retrain him.

I am not a dog behavior expert, but I do own a very bossy Australian Shepherd, who protects our house, and although she does not bite humans, she is a very strong watch dog. She barks a lot, and I can tell when she’s trying to gain the upper hand in our household by how much she is barking outside, and how bossy she is with other dogs.

There are a lot of techniques for gaining the upper hand, and letting him know that you are the leader, without getting into the whole ‘dominance’ and ‘alpha’ thing. With my girl, when she gets her bossy-pants on, we have a whole routine. This is what I have to do:

1. Before each meal, she has to sit and wait, away from her dish, while I put her food there, then ‘invite’ her to go eat. Ideally, I would eat first, then feed her, but it doesn’t work out that way.

2. When going through ANY doorway, I have to go through first, then ‘allow’ Cody through. She tries to rush it, so I have to body block her. I’m never harsh, I just HAVE to go through the doorway first. Sometimes I will tell her to wait before I go through, especially when going downstairs. Once she gets the hang of it, I don’t have to remind her anymore. When she goes outside, she has to sit and wait, then I open the back door, walk though, stand tall, then invite her to come outside.

3. If she’s being pushy for attention, she needs to do a sit or down before I pet her. This is really, really tough, because I LOVE cuddle time- I only make her sit when she’s being pushy, not when she’s being sweet.

4. If she blocks my path, or steps on my toes, she is doing it on purpose, so I have to barrel through her, making her move out of MY way. Sometimes, I will intentionally walk towards her, just to make her move. If she puts her paws over my toes, I put them over hers, or make her move off me. Every one of her actions is deliberate, so I have to remember this, and pay attention.

5. On walks, she has to be by my side or behind me. For the first half of the walk, we are all business- she has to walk pretty and can only stop to pee or poop. Once the structured walk is over, I let her be sniffy, and have ‘her’ time. If she’s being overly pushy, though, we have a 100% structured walk. When she is being super bossy, this part is KEY to being the leader.

6. Also, she has to be invited onto the bed or couch. Ideally, she wouldn’t be allowed up there, but I just can’t be this strict. I love that little booger, and I just can’t follow this rule

7. Do 10 downs a day. For no real good reason, other than because you said so. Still be positive, but firm. Say good dog afterwards, just like he’s doing a trick, but he has to stay in ‘down’ until you say he can get up.

Once you start doing those things (both you and your wife), he will hopefully understand a bit better who is boss. It works with Cody and I, and after a few days or a week, she isn’t as barky outside, and isn’t as pushy with other dogs. She is still a very pushy girl, but she stops thinking she is my boss, at least.

However, my strategy above doesn’t specifically address the strangers in the house thing, so until then, keep him in a separate room if someone is coming over, to make sure his aggression isn’t reinforced. Eventually, you will have to keep him on leash, and keep his attention 100% focused on you while someone arrives- luring him to look at you with treats. Keep his focus on you, treating him constantly, and keeping him sitting. You need to just keep reinforcing his ability to ignore strangers, and associate strangers at the door with treats, and it will hopefully desensitize him to his fear-aggression. I have not had to do this, personally, so I would trust the dog trainer over me, but this is what I would do, if it were me. And I would be totally freaked out and worried, so you have my sympathy!

ETA- I think he may also be under-exercised both physically and mentally. He probably needs a good 1 hour run in the morning, and then something to work his brain in the evening- fetch, frisbee, agility, tracking. One good mental game I play with Cody inside the house at night is hide and seek, either with a toy, or with me. She loves it and it seems to satisfy her mental prowess for a few hours, at least.

[mdraegerCA]

One of our dogs had a similar issue after we rescued him. He was leash aggressive toward other dogs mostly, but every now and then would lunge at random people. Like your dog, he did jump on and bite (without breaking the skin) a guy doing work at our apartment complex. Being in the exact same conundrum that you are now in, (with similar budgetary restrictions) we tried a bunch of different (unsuccessful) types of training before happening upon a local class that was called “Growly Dog” or something similar.

Basically, the issue boiled down to fear-based aggression. What we thought was him “protecting our home” or being aggressive was actually triggered by a fear response. (Which is why the Cesar Milan/showing him who the alpha is type of training that I’d always used in the past didn’t work and in fact was part of the problem.) The trainer had us do clicker training where you basically reward the behavior you want vs. punish the behavior you don’t. It has been HIGHLY effective. He still has issues when he sees other dogs from time to time, but is still way better than before and (knock on wood) we haven’t had any lunging/biting issues with people in years.

I imagine you could start by getting a book on clicker training or do some research to see if you have a similar class in your area. It should be much cheaper than the $250/hr behaviorist. Or perhaps ask your vet and/or the behaviorist if there are other folks in the same boat who could go in for a group session or something.

Good luck. It’s so heart-breaking to have a dog that you love doing this. As you mention, the consequences are so terrible for everyone involved.

Michelle

[fred_h]

Something somewhat similar happened to our dog when I was a kid.’

We found the dog very young in front of the church in a box.

For some reasons, you would pet and @ one point out of the blue he will “show his teeth” and is hair “would go up” (sorry to lazy and on a conf call to do proper translation). That was the first sign.
Then he bite and dragged the cleaning lady once (maybe twice) then he “kind of attacked my dad” (i.e. the master) so it was time to put in down. It was very difficult as he was obviously part of the family and the last 2 weeks were tough so he obviously was king in the house (allowed to go upstairs while he was not allowed before, etc…) and of course everything went fantastic in those last two weeks (but there was no way back!).

but honestly and he has bitten three people and lunged at at least four others] is in my book more than enough to go with 1) put him down

Fred.

[j_p_o]

I would look for an ACD rescue group. It seems that his current personality just does not mesh with your living situation. Too small of an area, too many people, and too much commotion.

It would be hard to give him up, but the alternative could be his life. It just doesn’t seem you have the time and money to do what has to be done to correct his behavior, and that is not a knock on you, an aggressive dog takes a ton of work to rehab.

[DavidK]

I hate to write this but…I think its time to put him down.

How will you feel if he truly hurts someone? I have represented several victims of dog bites. Usually it is not the dog’s first bite. Usually the prior bites were not as severe. Moreover, it is usually a child that is the victim of the severe bite. You now know that he has a true tendency to bite and that you can not control this tendency.

Perhaps if this was a longtime pet then you could justify using a muzzle, etc., but this is 9 year old rescue dog. Do the painful but smart thing and put him down. (I know I sound like an ogre).

David Krahulik

[Nova]

A biter will bite.

Please don’t wait until something catastrophic happens. Put her down

I have 5 dogs and love them all, but if they bite no matter how much I love them, they are going to sleep.

[Former_User]

Another good way to probe this board is to ask: what would YOU do?

Trade him back for a different model.

[karma]

After a friends dog bit her (super well trained with several titles on him ~ purebred weimereiner) she put him down the next day. Dogs that bite people are dangerous. If you have a family, get rid of the dog. Sorry to sound like I have no heart, but that dog needs to be running on 3000 acres chasing cattle and sheep all day, not taken for walks and a few runs. Cut you losses before he tear into a good friend and you lose that friend over it.

[chainpin]

Jesus chirst, three bites?

Shoot the fucker before he de-faces a kid and you have to live with regret the rest of your life.

It’s just a dog.

[Danno]

It’s just a dog.

Oh shit! Here we go . . .

[Katy]

what would YOU do?

Seek expert advice, not ask a random internet forum on an unrelated topic.

I know people get lots of information on a variety of issues here, but this is pretty important. There are safety and legal issues involved. Not to mention the life of a dog.

[chainpin]

It’s just a dog.

Oh shit! Here we go . . .

Sorry, but have been bit twice and have zero tolerance for dogs–even seemingly friendly, good dogs–that attack.

[gettingslower]

I am a dog trainer and I do a lot of rescue work for a Breed club and some of the local shelters. A shelter and breed rescue group can not adopt out your dog. The liability situation would be too great. My very sad advise, is to take the dog back to the shelter where you got her, and explain the situation. They should take the dog back, and they should immediately put it down.

If you do not do this, you really cant take this dog out. And you need to check your insurance policy. Did you disclose that you have a dog? That is a known biter? And many localities have ordinances for dogs like this that require you to have a secure enclosure. *usually a 6’ privacy fence, with a kennel run with a concrete floor, and top, that is kept padlocked They usually require you to have an insurance policy that will cover if the dog bites. Good luck getting that if you disclose that you have a known vicious dog.

If your dog does bite someone, you are setting yourself up for punitive damages. You know that this dog bites, and has done so on multiple occasions. That bumps up for a willful and wanton disregard of the safety of others.

I’m very sorry. In this case, there is one solution.

[JenSw]

I have a cattle dog that I rescued when she was 10. She is now 16. She has never been great with strangers or other dogs. That is very typical of the breed and if she wasn’t raised correctly this behavior gets out of hand. Cattle Dogs are very loyal and protective. If they see a threat to their house or person they will protect at all costs.

We did have a 2nd dog for a while that she bonded with, otherwise she wanted nothing to do with them and would even get pushy with them. Our solution is to keep her leashed at all times, put her in the bedroom whenever someone came over and limited her exposure to other dogs. She never bit though.

I can’t tell you what the right thing to do is. If it was me, I’d spend the money on the behaviorist. Get an expert, one on one evaluation. That should provide some clarity.

If he goes back to the shelter he will be put to sleep. If you do decide to put him to sleep, at least be with him so he doesn’t have to die alone at the shelter.

[Spiridon_Louis]

Probably should be no such thing as a second bite. Definintely should not be such a thing as a third bite.

PTS.

Anything less is irresponsible. It sucks but it’s your only choice.

One more thing, if this dog ever really hurts somebody, your post here will serve as proof that you knew he was dangerous and did nothing about it.

[Former_User]

Give him a cute pine cone to chew on.