Managed a 10mile TT @ 23.56 mph, 248w avg in late June.
Nothing fancy, just Zipp 440 for the TT (though in the picture I have 808s otherwise the position is the same)
I’m quite sure on the flats (or descents too?) everything else being equal, the more aerodynamic riders have an advantage over me- someone I raced w/at Nats mentioned I’d pull away on the hills but pass me back on the descents, and thought aerodynamics; said rider was on a Scott Plasma.
That looks like a Talon, you can definitely get more comfortable and possibly more aero on a true tri-designed bike. The Talon doesn’t match the steep (when you have the saddle forward) downtube with a relaxed head tube - the bike tends to get squirrely and it’s a bit cramped up front. Adding to the mix are drop bars and sti shifters, meaning you have to get out of your tuck to shift. Impossible to recommend a bike, any good tri-specific bike that fits your body well is the best choice.
you look like you are basically riding a road bike set-up with shorty clip-ons. my guess is that you have been well-adapted to this position and if you were to go to a radical aero position straight away your power out would suffer considerably in the short term (and maybe long-term as well).
are you riding a Giant TCR? that’s what it looks like to me anyway. a couple of years ago i was on a TCR, and i managed to achieve a 13cm saddle-bar drop with a flat stem and no spacers. Handling was fine with this set-up. You may want to play around with a zero setback seatpost and maybe zero spacers/?adjustable stem to try to get lower.
Eventally if you want a real aggressive position you would probably need a new bike, but in the meantime, a seatpost and adjustable stem (combined ~$100) should be able to get you into an intermediate semi-aggressive position at ~77 degree ST angle.
train in your new position over the winter. experiemtn a little and see how you get on. you should hopefully gain some speed on the flat roads.
If your objective is to optimize TT performance, emulate Zabriski … or I believe there’s another thread on the front page right now showing an old photo of Chris Boardman. Or check out a shot of Graeme Obree (I’m sure I slayed that spelling).
They all look quite different from you. No offense. Can’t tell a whole lot from the angle of your photo and the position of your legs, but you look way too upright for optimum aerodynamics. I just finished watching the USPRO TT Championship on Versus. From behind, Dave Zabriski looked headless.
Study the pro photos. There are different styles, but generally, they have flat backs and they’ve got their heads out of the wind as much as possible. There are exceptions (Lance Armstrong, most notably). But as a rule, the back is relatively flat, or a line drawn from the top of the helmet and down the spine will be only a few degrees from horizontal. The knees at the top of the pedal stroke will come to just a couple inches above and behind the elbow. The angle of the upper arm will match the head tube and be nearly in line with it.
Study the pro photos and experiment. Read all the fit articles you can find online. Once you’ve synthesized as much of the info as you can, I’d suggest trying to make changes as best you can with the equipment you’ve already got. Set yourself up on a trainer and take digital photos so you can see how the changes have made you look compared to heros of TT. Emulate! Then take it on the road and see how it works.
You’ll probably get feedback telling you to get a professional fitting. I’d try studying and tweaking things yourself, first. Apparently you have a powermeter. You can get feedback from that. (A lot of fitters can’t offer you that kind of feedback.) Just recognize that some changes will take time for adaptation. (Having said that, there are some you’ll probably be able to tell rather quickly if they’re going to work for you or not.)
Yes, it’s a TCR… I’ve two more spacers to get rid of- I’d be curious what it was like JRA?
The stem is new Easton EA90, less rise than the other oem stem, I could flip upside down.
I am well adapted to it, I had a GT Edge (non triple triangle) that I like quite well, but wanted to occasionally road race, I think effective STA on both bikes are the same, so yeah, I’ve been riding this position since I’ve been in the sport.
I was thinking BMC or Talon simply because I didn’t want such a drastic change, but ultimately if it doesn’t get me lower than I can currently get than perhaps it’s not good ROI.
i think ultimately for your purposes an aluminium Cervelo would be a good choice, possibly a closeout Dual (since they are discontinuing it) or a P2SL. the reversible seatpost and low headtube allows you to play with a wide range of seat angles and handlebar heights so there’s lots of adjustability. You can always stick with a dropbar/clip-on set-up even with a tri-bike. Bella Comerford uses a Cervelo P3C with drop bars and T2+ clip ons and it suits her well.
RE BMC/Talon i thikn you got it right there. There’s no upside other than aesthetics if you can’t get lower. And don’t forget the aluminium TCR was used to beat Lance armstrong’s USPS team in the TdF Team TT in 2003 by team ONCE (in fact ONCE won the stage), so it’s definitely a good enough frame if the geometry works.
Personally I’d say that unless you are looking at racing alot, stick to the road bike, dropping down the spacers would help a little, but you would probably do better by spending quality time on the Turbo and focusing on a bit of speed work. A dedicated TT/tri bike would certainly help, but could take a long time to adjust to, and at IM comfort is vital (unless you intend to* really* race* *it??) Good luck at CdA!
And don’t forget the aluminium TCR was used to beat Lance armstrong’s USPS team in the TdF Team TT in 2003 by team ONCE (in fact ONCE won the stage), so it’s definitely a good enough frame if the geometry works.
The TCR didn’t beat USPS in the TTT… ONCE beat USPS, and the aerodynamics of the model of bike that they rode was probably pretty insignificant in their performance. I’m not phrasing it this way to tear into you, but rather to emphasize that determining the specific fit for a rider is orders of magnitude greater than blindly recommending a bike based on how “aero” it is.
juha-pdx, if you haven’t already, go and have a professional fitting done to determine the geometry that will have you ideally positioned on the bike. Then go out and test ride, or internet surf, based upon those dimensions. There is no way to blindly recommend a bike without knowing how your body requires that it should be fit. While looking at pictures of professionals might get you excited to ride and buy the latest and greatest, your body is unique and might require some sort of uncommon setup in order to be comfortable and powerful for the entirety of an IM bike AND run.
since when did i ever say that the TCR is an aero bike???
my reference to the Tdf result was an illustration that the TCR has sufficient BB stiffness to make a good TT bike. It’s also to illustrate that the GEOMETRY works as a multisport bike. please don’t put words into my mouth.
That looks like a pretty lousy position, but that’s because of clip-ons. Get some integrated bars and an adjustable stem and you may be good to go. And you certainly don’t need to go expensive to go fast. I was playing with my position and didn’t want to spend a bundle. Ended up with an ebay special Leader frame. Me and my gear were good enough for a 56:50 40k in sea-level conditions at about 260 W. So my 12 more watts gave me 3.5+ mph more than you, on a cheap $250 frame.
Study the pro photos and experiment. Read all the fit articles you can find online. Once you’ve synthesized as much of the info as you can, I’d suggest trying to make changes as best you can with the equipment you’ve already got. Set yourself up on a trainer and take digital photos so you can see how the changes have made you look compared to heros of TT. Emulate! Then take it on the road and see how it works.
You’ll probably get feedback telling you to get a professional fitting. I’d try studying and tweaking things yourself, first. Apparently you have a powermeter. You can get feedback from that. (A lot of fitters can’t offer you that kind of feedback.) Just recognize that some changes will take time for adaptation. (Having said that, there are some you’ll probably be able to tell rather quickly if they’re going to work for you or not.)
This is great advice. If you follow this, then after a while you will begin to know your body and how you fit on your bike and begin to recognize what you need. My experience with profession fitting was a $200 waste of money. Too many fitters carry too many preconceived notions about how you should ride. For much less than that same $200 you can buy two or three cheap stems from Nashbar and try out some new lower positions. Nothing will increase your speed like getting your head and chest out of the wind since you are basically sitting upright in a road position.
To go really fast you will probably need a new bike with a steeper seat angle and lower head tube, but for now you can experiment with your present bike.
And don’t let people tell you that what works for the pros might not work for you. The principles apply at 20 or 25 mph just as they do at 30 mph.
Chad
I think I may have seen the photos… you should post them- though I think that it is the “TCR Aero” frame, not the round-tubed frame, but from 2003 and back the geometry of the bikes were the same.
2004 foward the STAs on the Aero frame bikes were mildly steeper… I don’t know if the head tubes shrunk.
Fwiw, I think in the off-season I will remove all the spacers and try to adapt to the new position w/the current setup…
I do have a PT so that will be good feedback on whether I’ve lost power drastically in a new position.
Okay Joe – thinking back to last year when you kicked my tail at Elma in the run… I was kinda pissed that you did it on what looked like a roadie set up (that’s supposed to be a good-natured jab, okay? remember who finished in front of whom).
If you’re thinking long coure, comfort is going to be key (I’ve never done and IM and don’t want to, I’m just regurgitating what others here have said). Small changes. If that means going lower and forward, fine, but I wouldn’t try to do that on the Giant. But don’t sacrifice your run to do it. Just something to keep in mind.
Yes, you could improve the position, aerodynamically speaking. I won’t say it sucks (you didn’t lose enough time on me on the bike for me to hold you off on the run), but it could use at least some tweaking.
I **am **really comfortable on it; What got me thinking about lowering drag was a post similiar to the one above.
That is someone who managed a 40k TT under an hour w/about the same sustained power I’ve been able to put out since Mid July forward. 23.5 doesn’t get me under an hour (obviously)… And, I’d like to think of that as a good benchmark for my current abilities. Fwiw, you really rode Elma a good deal quicker than me, and I know you don’t put in the same time as I do (that’s a compliment) so I’m always behind the eight ball in any sprint/Olympic, plus I have to ride friggin Carnation four times a week just to stay anywhere near stronger guys like you.
I don’t want to geek out too much on this, though I’m trying to think of myself, bike, wheels as the system. I’ve got decent enough wheels, wheel cover for the POS PT wheel…
It sounds like the verdict is that an extreme position will be harder to acheive on the current frame; I accept that for sure.
Since IMC is about going to be about ride comfort then getting steeper and more significant drop might not be wise w/a marathon to go.
So… better question for you- Are you racin’ the Black Diamond Sprint?
And besides “Team Something or other the bar” will prolly be there- I’d like to give him a scare.
Though one last Elma Tri before I go to SOMA would suffice (again.)…
I’m going to do Flowing Lake this weekend and then call it a season. Black Diamond is on the same day as my step-daughter’s birthday, so I’m not going to disappear on her for half the day to do the race.
Yeah, Team-Raise-the-Bar “I’m too good” guy will probably be there at BD. Good luck. Hopefully he won’t have a pack of riders helping him along like at Elma.
On the position – you can try dropping a spacer and see how the power numbers go (since you have that available to you). If you try to go extreme on that frame, it’s not that it’s going to hurt you, I just think you’re going to hit the frame’s limits (in both lowering the front and the whole stability equation) pretty quickly.
